When does a gentleman fight back?

[Lear]

Cross-posted to Style Forum, General Chat + Body Conciousness and The Fedora Lounge, as I think it a worldwide problem.

If this is not an appropriate thread for TFF, then Admin - please move/delete.

The emphasis is on gentleman.

I loathe the nano-cerebral sub-species who appear to be breading faster than the gentle folk. Scum - every single one of them.

They can sense a civilized individual. They know that 'normal' folk, don't attack or kill others for pointless reasons, dislike fighting, or at least dislike fighting over something trivial and pathetic. This gives them an instant psychological advantage.

The worst thing a cultured (well, I'm not sure I'd call myself that) person can do is try to engage in conversation with these types. They'll instantly realize that good voice, well spoken = softy pacifist.

I'm continually finding myself in situations, where I'm left to skulk away like a coward. But it's NOT cowardice! The logical part of my mind is already racing ahead, and I can see before me:

* A call to the police by another member of the public.
* A body slumped on the floor (not mine).
* Me, now being accused, even though I was merely defending myself.
* Hundreds/thousands of pounds worth of clothes possibly ruined.
* Getting carted away to the police cells.
* Getting arrested.
* Having DNA taken and put onto UK database.
* Time taken out of the day.
* Unable to attend event/gathering you were due at.
* If with another civilized individual, you could also cause their day/night/life to be ruined.
* Going to court.
* Going to jail
* Event gets reported in local/national paper

I must have the patience of a saint and self-control of a monk. I'm constantly amazed at the bravery of some of these people. The most amusing was when I was continually thumped by a random female office worker. She was annoyed that I'd found an empty queue, that no one else had happened upon. She was literally trying to beat me to the ground. Yet - I'm 6'2", wear a size 48 jacket, bench and dead-lift a respectable amount and look very much as if I can handle myself. BUT EVEN THAT DIDN'T DETER HER! Amazing. I didn't lift a finger. As she left, I merely muttered to the crowd, " Well, I won't be inviting her round for dinner" ( a line from a script).

Did I mention that I hate these people. I HATE THEM!

I know that I'm not a coward. I once helped a Chinese guy who was crying in the street after he'd been mugged. I only did it because I felt sorry for him. I managed to hold the mugger until the police arrived to cart him off. No one cared about the victim until I had the thief held. Then a crowd of about fifty gathered from nowhere, accusing me of all sorts. Crazy!

However, I just can't bring myself to fight another human being. It bothers me SO MUCH that I'm not manning up to these situations, continually letting scum ride roughshod over me.

I need reassurance. Please, someone out there - who can very much take care of themselves - tell me that they have this happen to them as well. Tell me also that you never lift a finger.

It's always after the event. You run through your mind what you could/should have done, then realize the possible consequences for you and others.

It's also NOT the behaviour of a gentleman.

What do we do?

Lear

 

[Spitfire]

You raise a very interesting question, which - if not handled right by all posters - very soon will be closed down.

But let me try:
I have always lived after the rule: I never, ever strike the first blow.
Luckily my life has been reasonably safe. Guesse my size and my abillity to talk me out of everything, has kept me out of trouble. Except once.
I was attacked by a drunken bully just because he did not liked the length of my hair (It was way back in the 60's). He hit me on the mouth, and when I felt the taste of blood in my mouth, I snapped, like I had never thought a "gentleman and peaceloving hippie" could snap.
Few seconds after, he was on the floor with a blody nose and a severe pain in the lower region.
When the police arrived, they picked him up and let me go, because there were so many witneses, who stated that I did not start it and that I was attacked. (I am glad they did, having long hair etc.)

A gentleman fights back when attacked. But he never starts the fight.

 

[Lear]

This is what it boils down to:

The thought of fighting someone makes me sad. It upsets me - deep inside.

Lear

 

[pigeon toe]

The one major fight my ex-boyfriend got into that I felt was justified was when him and a group of friends were attacked by racist skinheads. That kind of violent racial hatred is something I feel many of us would feel very hard pressed to just let happen.

 

[celtic]

This is definitely a topic that I've thought about and dealt with very much.

I had friends who loved to fight, but I was not one of them.

Often times they would get into a fight and look to me for backup because of my size, and I was always torn between my ideals: Is it right to back up a friend even if he instigated a fight? Is it wrong to fight someone who doesn't deserve it? Shouldn't one always be there to help his friends?

Luckily I smarted up and pretty much stay away from those 'friends' and stay out of places and situations where things like this occur.

What I often fear most is not jail (although that is on my mind) but the fact that so many people carry handguns and you never know when you'll end up on the wrong end of one.

Call me a coward, but I will do my best not to die for silly, stupid arguments.

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Seconded! I only add the following: If I were to see a defenseless person being attacked, I would certainly intervene, especially if the victim happened to be a woman or a child, as I assume most if not all true gentlemen would. Like you, my size has kept people from trying anything with me. The one and only time I hit someone was in a fist fight in my backyard at the age of ten or eleven.

You raise a very interesting question, which - if not handled right by all posters - very soon will be closed down.

But let me try:
I have always lived after the rule: I never, ever strike the first blow.
Luckily my life has been reasonably safe. Guesse my size and my abillity to talk me out of everything, has kept me out of trouble. Except once.
I was attacked by a drunken bully just because he did not liked the length of my hair (It was way back in the 60's). He hit me on the mouth, and when I felt the taste of blood in my mouth, I snapped, like I had never thought a "gentleman and peaceloving hippie" could snap.
Few seconds after, he was on the floor with a blody nose and a severe pain in the lower region.
When the police arrived, they picked him up and let me go, because there were so many witneses, who stated that I did not start it and that I was attacked. (I am glad they did, having long hair etc.)

A gentleman fights back when attacked. But he never starts the fight.

 

[Anachronism]

Well, in terms of cowardice, I think an important question would be: Do you fight to defend others that are weaker? And would you still try to defend them if you knew you would get hurt?

 

[Feraud]

Call me a coward, but I will do my best not to die for silly, stupid arguments.

I would call that a smart person.

 

["Skeet" McD]

A gentleman fights back when attacked. But he never starts the fight.

That's about it, I think. A gentleman is known--beyond all externals of dress; discourse; and mannerisms--by self-possession. Once upon a time, when society was playing by different rules, very formalized fighting (i.e., the duel) was an accepted way for gentlemen to address unforgivable lapses of decorum. We don't live in that world anymore. Turn on your heel and walk away with your head held high. This is a very different matter than skulking or cowardice...just about as different as can be conceived.

Once you are attacked physically--it's a different matter: that's called self-protection. And providing assistance--even physical assistance--to prevent harm to someone else who is being attacked is a different matter, as well: to me, that's selflessness of a very high order.

Your emotional upset is palpable: try to keep a good rein on your emotions. None of us has much chance of changing the ways of the world; the only method at our disposal with any chance of having an effect is by setting a good example. I hope you continue to do so!

Just one man's opinion.

Respectfully,
"Skeet"

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Yes on both counts.

Well, in terms of cowardice, I think an important question would be: Do you fight to defend others that are weaker? And would you still try to defend them if you knew you would get hurt?

 

[cufflinkmaniac]

Indeed!

I would call that a smart person.

 

[KittyT]

I have a friend who was in the back seat of a NYC cab with a gal he was dating, and the cab driver basically called her a whore. My friend flipped out, got arrested, and is now facing a rather costly court battle.

Sometimes it's worth it to just swallow your pride.

 

[Paisley]

Lear, the woman who attacked you might have been drunk, high or mentally ill. It's unclear how many men are assaulted by women, but like you, hardly any of them report it to the police.

At 6'-2", you have the advantage of a good reach. Perhaps you could hold back a shorter person or learn some purely defensive moves in a martial arts class.

 

[The Shirt]

It's makes me quite sad as well. I've never understood the "macho" fighting thing. Certainly I would absolutely believe in defending someone who is being attacked unjustly. But I'll be truthful, men who just caught up in the heat of the moment are honestly an enormous turn-off for me. Not that that was the question. But I regard a man who is able to see clearly, think thru how his actions would impact his future (as you listed) and avoid/talk thru the matter rather than getting caught up as much more compatible, much more level headed, mature and desireable sort. Fighting is the choice of a boy, walking away is the choice of a man.

I've had guns pulled on me, witnessed plenty of people trying to start something with those I am with, etc. I'll be honest, the way a man acts in that situation has had enormous impact on how I see them in the future. I think the adrenaline of the situation causes all sorts of second guessing of our actions.

 

[Feraud]

At 6'-2", you have the advantage of a good reach. Perhaps you could hold back a shorter person or learn some purely defensive moves in a martial arts class.

Unfortunately in a defensive position the other person can still injure themself. A legal action will likely be brought against the innocent party.

The best defense is the ability to defuse situations before they become a physical issue.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I need reassurance. Please, someone out there - who can very much take care of themselves - tell me that they have this happen to them as well. Tell me also that you never lift a finger.



What do we do?

Lear

Nope ... can't say that I find myself in these situations. I find myself in other situations i.e. stepping up to the plate defending the rights of members of a protected class. That is my choice however.

My basic rule of thumb is "if I do not want the apple, I stay out of the orchard". I would be a fool to think that if I get involved in the same situations over and over again there would be a different result.

I am not a coward nor am I a fool. I make choices that I can live with regarding the issues you have presented. I cannot imagine ever getting physical with someone over a statement. There are other ways to deal with situations.

Incidentally, I know how to "take care" of myself. Only once in my adult life have I had to do the "martial arts" thing that was reflexive.

 

[Paisley]

The best defense is the ability to defuse situations before they become a physical issue.

Yes. Learning to deal with crazies takes time, but it's worthwhile.

 

[Foofoogal]

I have always lived after the rule: I never, ever strike the first blow.

I have 4 brothers that have boxed. One was a professional boxer with 46 fights. Before that he fought as a street fighter. A preacher actually took him under his wing and got him into Golden Gloves and then pro fighting.
I don't think he lost one fight as a pro but could be mistaken. Anyway he always said as a fighter he has only lost 3 fights in his life and each one of those he threw the first punch or started the fight anyway. He swears this is why he lost. Makes sense to me.
I don't agree with boxing though for many reasons.

 

[Fedord Spaniard]

To the original poster..

Amen brother. I know exactly how you must feel as you see i sometimes ask myself the same questions. I will never understand why someone would disrepect another human being for no reason. When i was a kid, and growing up in nyc.. i used to get into fights constantly. I used to have a street fight every summer cause there would always be some moron that took offense at my presence and they would let me know by hitting me. One guy got in my face once and he hit me in the leg with a baseball bat on purpose once during a baseball game... and let me tell you im no tough guy.. not at all ("hells angels" those are tough guys "the aryan brotherhood" those are tough guys) but when he did that... i picked up the nearest baseball bat and he ran cause he had an idea of where i was putting it next, thats right wherever it hit. He never bothered me again. In school i used to clash constantly with ghetto guys they were usually "ghetto" black guys and some were hispanics and they would use slurs or make fun of me cause i didnt dress like them with my pants on the floor and was never into hip hop. They would try to show me how tough they were..for no reason. I guess it was cause i was different. Funny thing most of these guys were always tough only in a group but never by themselves....So i know how ruthless some people can be i this world. My advice to you dear friend, would be to avoid conflict as much as possible. He/She who avoids is not a coward at all...they just know the consequnces that their actions can lead to. Its not worth it to get killed or go to prison or both. Avoid as much as you can... But if with ever strength of your power you avoidance doesnt help you...then do what you have to do. Unfortunatley some of these people who prey on the innocent only understand violence.... So you have to communicate to them with thier language at times.. But just avoid problems man cause its not worth it all.

 

[JEEP]

I deal with this problem everyday; I work at a hunting-/outdoor store in Aarhus, the second largest city in Denmark. In Aarhus we have problems with violent gangs of young arab/palestinian boys/men. Due to the fact that the store is located in the center of the city and that we are selling guns and knives - aswell as a few clothing brands prefered by these people - we have a lot of problems with groups of 5-20 yong very agressive men entering the store making a lot of trouble, acting threatening and violently hoping to be able to steal something, gain access to the weapons room and just generally piss other people off for fun. Both my boss end I (an elderly gentleman build like an ox and with a stenght like two) has been threadened on our lives several times - though no weapons has been produced (yet).

We have contacted the police several times - every time we are told that the do not have the time/recourses to handle such "small" problems. For us is not a small problem, we are constantly awaiting the next confrontation - and our customers are scared away.

I am 184 cm tall, weighs 110 kg (some of it is my rather unflattering gut, but a great deal is also muscle) and I have taught martial arts before my shoulder broke down with arthretis. I am not afraid of any single opponent (unlees he is armed with a firearm), but a gruop of 5 yong boys with bad attittudes trying to provoke one to make the fist blow scares the crap out me. First of all; no matter how good you are you almost alwas loose af fight with more than three opponents (and these guys have a rep. of not knowing when to stop jumping on your head), secondly; when the fist guy hits the floor the other guys will, with a certainty of 99,9%, pull knives at me - third problem is that the way the Danish law is, with me having taught martial arts; if I hurt anyone I am proper f****d - and I will by a 90% chance go to jail, no matter what the witnesses say.
I must admit that I more than once has actually wished for one of them to strike a punch at me - just to experience the pleasure of gripping his hand and hurling him across the floor. Not something I am proud off - and luckily so far it has not happended. And have no doubt; if it happens the police will be there in ten and haul my beind to jail faster that I can spell selfdefence.

I have no answers - nor solutions - but I know the feeling described by Lear.


Regards.

Jakob