What's up with Nick and Jessica?

[Senator Jack]

Anyone else hear that Regis and Kelly are feuding? Did you see what J Lo was wearing on Leno last week?

If I want inane conversation about fatuous people I'll attend a dinner party, thank you very much please, but it seems that with all the polemical threads at this lounge being closed we may soon be forced to entertain ourselves with such drivel. The latest lockup was on the "Become a Gentleman" thread, which I thought took an interesting turn on ethics with all three sides - right,left, and center - giving fair argument. But did we need to have Democratic leaders (whatever their worth) vilified and the Republicans (whatever their worth) pedastaled? Yes, I myself had made some statements about the people who are really running the country (the top 5%) but I do believe, and hope, that I was able to support those statements by fact and not with mere opinion. (If anyone can point out where I erred, please note and I will match date/time to probility of inebriation)

With three months now gone since I've begun posting at this lounge I have to again iterate that I've thouroughy enjoyed our spirited discussions about clothing, the vintage lifestyle, politics, and ethics. I find everyone here to be intelligent and of fine deport, and believe me I use those descriptives sparingly these days. But I also know that despite intelligence and deportment people sometimes just need to scream 'You're wrong!' and sometimes they even have to resort to this idiocy - - which I find to be the equivalent of a schoolyard boy with thumbs in his ears and fingers a-waggle. (Perhaps that icon has to go) This lounge, of course, is no place for that sort of behavior, and, again, I will remind everyone of MK's message:

'This board has great reputation for being civil. I will do whatever is needed to keep it that way. We will conduct ourselves as ladies and gentlemen.'

I for one should like to continue the ethical and political discussions with everyone - right, left, and center - but do please read your posts before submission. If there's an outside chance of getting the thread closed (and those chances seem to have become greater of late) please let it cool for a while. And to the moderators, I do ask that threads not be closed because of a single case of ugliness. That sort of punishment should be reserved for, again, fifth graders.

Thanks and kind regards,

Senator Jack

 

[herringbonekid]

that's funny. i was just thinking that certain recent threads SHOULD be closed. i didn't join the lounge to listen to small minded, xenophobic, homophobic rants. i joined to share an interest in vintage clothing and the era. seriously, if some of the stuff that gets written here continues unchecked, i'm out.

 

[Colonel]

The problem I had with that situation was the blatent thread hijacking that started out as thread drift. The thing that attracted me to this forum is that here was a group of men and women who could discuss the concept of what makes a lady or a gentleman with the seriousness it deserves. I've got no problem with spirited political discussions - my business is politics (I write and sell political campaign software and do "special projects" for candidates), and I've been a candidate, key staffer, officer in the local party organization , etc. I look at the Fedora Lounge as a refreshing break from what is all-too-common in political circles. I was really enjoying the discussion on gentlemen before it got seriously side-tracked.

Perhaps a section named "Ladies and Gentlemen" rather than lumping it in with the more generic "Observation Bar"? Just a suggestion for your consideration. That would certainly be where I would spend my time.

Also, this is a good time to express my sincere thanks to those who do the work to maintain this forum. It's an often thankless job with a lot of work that, as long as things run smoothly, few are aware of. Thank you sirs!

 

[Senator Jack]

Herringbonekid,

If you have the time, please go back and read through some of our discussions. You'll find discourse that one seldom finds at forums. Due to the specific focus of some forums and the members it attracts (ex. a vintage car forum, an arts forum) any political/ethcial debate is lopsided with rights shouting down the lefts at the former and lefts shouting down the rights at the latter. What makes this lounge intriguing is a) we have a fair mix of right, left, and center, and b) we strive to recapture an era where drawing room ladies and gentlemen could eruditely discuss such topics.

I believe all topics are fair game for debate as long as one can debate fairly. For it is only through reasoned debate that we might actually be able to change a few opinions.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Harry Lime]

I'm forced to agree.

that's funny. i was just thinking that certain recent threads SHOULD be closed. i didn't join the lounge to listen to small minded, xenophobic, homophobic rants. i joined to share an interest in vintage clothing and the era. seriously, if some of the stuff that gets written here continues unchecked, i'm out.

I seriously doubt you are alone in this regard. At times, so little regard or thought given to who may tuning in. So little empathy for others.

The lounge now has thousands of members from around the world. They tune in because of a common interests hoping to find a warm place with an inclusive feel. Then, despite whatever their backgrounds or beliefs, they're bombarded with behavior of the type you describe; talk of "queers" and "Queer-dos." When and where it's okay to use the racial slur "Jap." What God thinks and why the person who is interpretting his word is 100% correct and you're on the road to damnation. How the left is evil and it's leaders corrupt and ungentlemanly, or vice-versa. How America is the best at absolutely everything and anything. How expressing these types of views is okay "cuz that's just the way I yam. An' there's a lotta fellers here who like and agree with me..." - which fishes for more of the same. I think it's quite sad.


I travel abroad, all over the world, frequently. I've witnessed first hand the erosion of goodwill internationally to America and Americans. While a complex issue a lot of this seems to be based on the perception that Americans are boorish, xenophobic, jingoistic, narrow-minded, prejudicial and hypocritical. Why? I think because of glimpses like these of real people, more so even than TV and movie portrayals. All Americans have a right to speak freely and some of this "free speech" becomes attributed to "all Americans." It's embarrassing and scary at the same time.

I don't know what the answer is but I do know you're probably just the first to voice what many feel. The result of this if left unchecked is interesting, civil, broad-minded individuals will leave, some quietly and some with more noise. You can imagine what will be left.

Harry Lime

 

[John in Covina]

Calculated comments and view points.

When someone makes a snide remark, a backhanded complement or some other put down, why be surprised that people respond? It is like people that tailgate when driving, why are you so surprised when I put on the brakes?

Everyone has hot button topics, politics and religion should be set aside, but for some their politics shapes their lifestyle and outlook. They either cannot resist taking a dig or they are so provincial in their politics they simply can't help making statements or points of view the either clearly or as an undertone takes a stance.

Diplomacy is defined by some as telling someone to go to hell and making them look forward to the trip. But there is a tendency by some to think they're Oscar Wilde and their erudite comments are suppose to go under the radar, the Neaderthals couldn't possibly understand or be so delightfully witty that they can't be objected to on some sort of 'point scale.' Whenever you go in being "Pro" something you can usually count on being countered by a "Con" view point. However there are some giving either wittingly or not, unwarranted attacks. Others fall into high handed snobbery, calculated to evoke a response, so why be surprised when it raises a fight?

Hot button topics: either don't bring them up or try to keep it to an argument along the lines of features and benefits, pluses and negatives but not to be pointed at anyone person, name calling nor broad brush tactics. (All ***** are bad drivers!)

Poor demeanor should not be disguised as 'good natured ribbing' like: "He is the lowest skeasyest hustler I have ever seen, but I don't mean that in a bad way!" In a written forum, it's hard to tell your inflection, what might be funny spoken in a certain way can be read in a lot of different ways and taken in a lot of different ways. You can figure it won't go the way you think it should.

First and formost: DO NO HARM! If you bash something or someone expect a result and don't be surprised. If you bait someone, don't then try to take a high handed aproach to the response.. Bad judgement and stupid remarks in a forum like this are unkind, but they stand forever unless removed and when you've been attacked or you feel a point of view has been proffer if not countered then it gains points.

People have a right to their opinion no matter how stupid or repulsive, but the difference is in knowing when to stifle youself. In the end you may make the most witty and poignient argument you ever have, only to wish you could take it back. The problem is, it is already too late, words once said cannot be taken back, words once posted cannot be erased. You can remove them, but they are still out there. Spiteful, vitriolic, venomous and hateful motives poisons the soul. Avoid these when ever posible.

Warmest regards to all & Happy New Year!

 

[Zemke Fan]

What I personally find most troubling...

is the hijacking of threads. I have no problem if someone wants to start a provocative thread in the "Observation Bar" to encourage a spirited (but in my preference civilized) discussion. My beef is how innocuous topics -- such as remembering the sacrifice of those who died on December 7, 1941, or a list of best movies for 2005 -- can be commandeered and turned into a monumental, totally uncivilized p***ing match. I say this to the powers that be: I sure hope ya'll put a stop to that kinda nonsense.

 

[Senator Jack]

Looking back at the 'Become a Gentlemen' thread, there really was no hijacking but a natural following of course. A question was raised as to whether breeding, money, actions, ethics makes a gentleman. I'll defend the validitiy of that course, for that is the essence of conversation.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Section10]

Although I read the other forums, I seldom post in them because so many other people are so much more knowledgeable than I am, I feel I'd have little to contribute. But in the O.B. I feel able to get a little more involved with what's on people's minds. I'm opinionated, but I like to hear what others think. I'm a staunch Christian but I feel no contempt for those who aren't.
Although I feel free to disagree, I try not to mortify other people and I hope others treat me the same. As long as people respect each other and refrain from insults or hitting below the belt a lively discussion is a very interesting thing.

 

[Panamabob]

Harry Lime...are you one of our favorite hatters?

 

[jamespowers]

But in the O.L. I feel able to get a little more involved with what's on people's minds. I'm opinionated, but I like to hear what others think. I'm a staunch Christian but I feel no contempt for those who aren't.
Although I feel free to disagree, I try not to mortify other people and I hope others treat me the same. As long as people respect each other and refrain from insults or hitting below the belt a lively discussion is a very interesting thing.

That sounds like the same thing I have heard from several people. Sounds good to me. Welcome to the Observation Bar.
Do you think we could title this thread a little better so people will actually know what we are talking about? I didn't touch this thread for a long while just because I wanted nothing to do with discussing the people mentioned in the title. (by the way that means I am saying this in a funny way so you won't get the wrong idea from flat words. )

Regards to all,

J

 

[Bebop]

that's funny. i was just thinking that certain recent threads SHOULD be closed. i didn't join the lounge to listen to small minded, xenophobic, homophobic rants. i joined to share an interest in vintage clothing and the era. seriously, if some of the stuff that gets written here continues unchecked, i'm out.

You make it sound as if someone is forcing you to read all topics. If anything you read anywhere offends you, by all means don't read. If political viewpoints, small minded or not, are not your cup of tea, move on. There is alot of great vintage talk here. There are many people that do not participate in political or ethical threads and they contribute alot to this Lounge. If you care about J. Low, start a thread. I believe in letting adults check themselves and if my opinion makes me or you look like a small minded, homophobic jerk, we will deal with it. Let's talk. That is what makes this place so interesting. You can go from "How to properly shave" to "What do you think about the war in Iraq?" with just a click. Knowing how to react to being offended by opposing points of views is one of the more interesting things in dealing with people. Where else can Christians, Jews, Atheist, men, women, of all races, political parties, different education levels, get together and share points of view? I see it as one giant hand shake without the germs. :cheers1:

 

[Harry Lime]

No, but I understand your guess.

Harry Lime...are you one of our favorite hatters?

Panama Bob,

I'm guessing you think I'm Graham Thompson from Optimo, based on the Chicago locale. In all truthfulness I'm not Graham, though I am a good customer of his and consider myself a good friend.

Therefore to all, whether you agree with me or disagree with me please do not take it out on Graham or Kevin or Marlene or any of the wonderful people at Optimo hats. My posts are mine and mine alone.

As a matter of purpose I prefer to remain enigmatic. I could be anyone that you see anywhere at anytime, as any of us on the forum could be. My race, my religion, my preferences politically and otherwise are only of importance to me. That's the point; why throw stones?

I hope more spirited discussions take place on the forum. But without the crutch of, when in doubt, call someone a "fag," a "bible beater," "a left/right wing nut" or "an atheist" and turning the whole discussion into a barroom brawl.

If Graham was on the forum he'd probably only talk about hats. That's his true passion.

Harry Lime

 

[Panamabob]

Locale. World traveler, etc.

Believe me, nobody here will take anything out on them. They are very well respected here.

 

[Bebop]

Panama Bob,

I'm guessing you think I'm Graham Thompson from Optimo, based on the Chicago locale. In all truthfulness I'm not Graham, though I am a good customer of his and consider myself a good friend.

Therefore to all, whether you agree with me or disagree with me please do not take it out on Graham or Kevin or Marlene or any of the wonderful people at Optimo hats. My posts are mine and mine alone.

As a matter of purpose I prefer to remain enigmatic. I could be anyone that you see anywhere at anytime, as any of us on the forum could be. My race, my religion, my preferences politically and otherwise are only of importance to me. That's the point; why throw stones?

I hope more spirited discussions take place on the forum. But without the crutch of, when in doubt, call someone a "fag," a "bible beater," "a left/right wing nut" or "an atheist" and turning the whole discussion into a barroom brawl.

If Graham was on the forum he'd probably only talk about hats. That's his true passion.

Harry Lime

Putting "an Atheist" as an insult next to "bible beater", "left wing right wing nut" and "fag" is kind of strange and certainly could be interpreted as "throwing stones". My point is that even you, the one that does not want to throw stones and remain "enigmatic", can be viewed as bent to one side or the other. There is nothing wrong with calling someone an Atheist. It is not the same as calling someone a fag. I am guessing that you think calling someone "an Atheist" is offensive. To us Atheists it is a compliment.

 

[Senator Jack]

Originally posted by James Powers -
Do you think we could title this thread a little better so people will actually know what we are talking about?

If anyone here seriously thought I would post anything about those morons, then he or she has obviously never read one of my posts. And if either of those two morons are reading this post, no, I don't apologize for the name-calling.

Originally posted by PanamaBob -
Harry Lime...are you one of our favorite hatters?

Panama, you're not trying to hijack this thread, are you?

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[The Wolf]

how to be a gentleman

I was raised that gentleman didn't talk about sex, politics or religion because it was too easy to offend someone thusly. I thought it odd that people talk about modern politics in this lounge, but many people seem to enjoy it.
I certainly don't want to insult anyone in the Lounge or tell them what to do because I consider the people here friends and peers.
Here's to healthy discourse and let's party like it's 1939.

Happy New Year,
The Wolf

 

[Harry Lime]

You're right and wrong.

Putting "an Atheist" as an insult next to "bible beater", "left wing right wing nut" and "fag" is kind of strange and certainly could be interpreted as "throwing stones". My point is that even you, the one that does not want to throw stones and remain "enigmatic", can be viewed as bent to one side or the other. There is nothing wrong with calling someone an Atheist. It is not the same as calling someone a fag. I am guessing that you think calling someone "an Atheist" is offensive. To us Atheists it is a compliment.

I don't think calling someone who is an avowed atheist and atheist is offensive or wrong other than the act of "calling" someone anything is wrong. There are those who would use it as an insult or slur. Say, in a conversation between two people of faith about God. One doesn't believe the other's views and says, "I see. You're an atheist." If someone practices a faith and the term is used against them it would be considered a slur. And offensive.

You do make my point though. Your antenna is up for that word and you are sensitive to it's use. You're proud of your label under that word and bristle that it could be used as anything other than a compliment. You bristle that it used even in an expository sense next to other words that you, in your mind, know have been used as stones. Your "I am guessing..." is a wrong guess. You still don't know my proclivities for anything. You're only guessing, which is conjecture, which is painting your own picture of me based on very little if any concrete evidence. You read between the lines and have drawn your own conclusions based on your own beliefs and life experiences, not anything I provided. You decided that I called you an atheist as an insult based on bupkus.

Context and character have everything to do with a words a meaning. "The N word" is widely considered one of the most offensive in our language, yet it's used by some in a context other than an insult. I would not suggest doing this on an internet forum (I would suggest not ever doing this anywhere but that's me. And Oprah..she's made this point as well). Likewise "atheist" can be used in less than flattering ways. Any label can be...which is my point.

You're an atheist. I won't insult you. I don't care what you are, what you do or what you look like, if and how you want to label yourself. I won't condemn your views or promote them.

Harry Lime

 

[Senator Jack]

Okay, now you can close this thread.

Senator Jack

 

[MK]

I just found this thread....

...and expected to find something else.

Never the less, I am glad I found it. First of all let me say thanks for the kind words. I am pleased most of you hold this joint in high regard. The posts on this thread have been reasonable and mature. I appreciate the views expressed, both positive and negative...in fact, I share most of your thoughts on what has been going on lately. For those of you who just joined recently, The Fedora Lounge is experiencing growing pains.

We started off as a very small group that either came from the Indiana Jones camp or from Atomic Magazine's website. For the first year or so it was very easy to administrate this place. Everyone was very well behaved. That was due to a lot of people already knowing each other from other circles combined with our registration policy of no free e-mail addresses keeping out trolls.

I used to read all the posts. I could associate a personality with each member's name. Those days are long gone. We have almost 1600 members and are gaining about 100 new members every 17 days.

Most of us used to be on the same page on most subjects. Now we have a wide range of schools of thought on just about every issue.

The bartenders and I used to have it easy. It was a milk run. We rarely deleted posts or locked down threads. Now we are really having to work rather than just enjoy the community. We too are frustrated. We don't get paid for this (On the contrary, I fund The Fedora Lounge along with the few bucks I get for our merchandise.) In fact one of my bartenders has had so much joy stolen from having to keeping the peace he is seriously considering hanging it up.

My goal has always been for this place to run like a gentleman's club of old. We can sip a brandy and discuss matters of the day (including religion and politics). The key is for members are to treat each other with respect. That requires not getting too emotionally involved in debates. One must allow people to have opinions that they don't agree with.

Here is what I see as the problem. We have two types of people that are causing conflict.

1) Individuals who have a pet peeve or agenda and wear it on their sleeve. They stick their chin out with a "Go on. I dare you" attitude.

2) Individuals who want to punish or silence others because they disagree with certain opinions. They think some opinions are off limits and therefore they are justified in brow beating. If the person doesn't clam up, they stomp their feet and demand we silence these opinions or they will take their toys and go home.

They are like fire and gasoline. I am very agravated seeing great threads hijacked. A few individuals are ruining interesting topics that the rest of us are enjoying.

The bartenders and I are doing our best at keeping the peace. We communicate with each other and discuss what we can do to keep this as one of the best boards online. We are on a learning curve as we now having to flex our muscle for the first time. We are working on policies and guidelines to help us in our task. I ask that you be patient with us...and know that we will make descisions from time to time that might not be the choice that you would make. Try to remember that we most often have more information behind the scenes regarding the situation then you probably do.

Our challenge is to learn from these growing pains and make the changes that will let us go to the next level without losing what The Fedora Lounge is all about. I have some plans that I will share with you later in the year that you should find exciting.

Thanks again for your thoughts and your support.