What's the point?

[photobyalan]

This thread in the classified section brings up a good question.

Is is really worth paying that kind of price for a vintage hat? Yes, the Whippet is a nice hat, for sure. But, after you've spent the $172, plus the $10 for shipping, plus the cost of a cleaning and reblocking (and shipping the hat both ways if you don't live near a decent hatter), then you're out almost the price of a brand-new 100% beaver lid from one of the hatters here on the lounge. Heck, you can get one of Art's signed and numbered limited editions for just a little more than that high bidder is going to end up paying once the hat is cleaned.

So, why pay that much for vintage if you can get comparable quality new for almost the same money?

 

[budward]

Good point. But a vintage, even at roughly the same price as a new, custom hat, can have correspondences with the past that a new one lacks. For instance, that Whippet has connections with Bing Crosby, who wore one, and to that era. To have the same type of hat, from the actual era, that grandfather or father or uncle whoever wore also has a value that can't be bought from Art or Graham. I submit some guys would pay for that value over a new, custom hat, because it connects you with a part of your own nostalgic past.

Bud

 

[Zemke Fan]

Not muchova hat collection yet...

But, I tend to favor Alan's side of the argument. Why not get a top-quality hat that's new and unworn? Yes, if you're a vintage collector, I can understand and appreciate the appeal of an original. (After all, I collect WWII uniforms, wings, and other memorabilia.) However, for something that's going to be worn on a regular basis, I lean towards the new custom hats. I will continue to checkout eBay on a regular basis for great condition AFFORDABLE vintage lids in a 7-3/4 size. BUT, I'm also saving my scheckels for an Art Fawcett custom!

 

[lenj]

Oldies

Probably the reason for keeping anything old when something new will serve just as well - to possess a bit of history, to see and feel how things were done in a different time, and old hats always seem to be the measure when we are looking at how good the new ones are.

lenj

 

[feltfan]

Avoid those dirty old hats!

Remember that a lot of vintage hats *don't* need to
be cleaned and blocked. For some of us, the old blocking
is part of its value. So that takes some bucks off the
estimate.

But there are other reasons to get vintage hats.

Variety is one. The sheer diversity of felts, sweat bands,
ribbons, and block designs is a delight. No matter how good
Art or Optimo or Delk might be, they are only three hatters.
Vintage lets you shop from dozens, perhaps hundreds of
hatters over a stretch of decades of styles and techniques.

Quality. It may be that some of this new Portuguese felt
is the equal of vintage felt. I haven't seen it. The few Optimo
hats I've seen don't make me want to chuck the old Borsos yet.
I have hats that have been worn or rolled in a box or otherwise
abused for decades that still have more life in them than any
new hat I've held in my hands.

Colors. For whatever reason (the EPA might be one!), some
colors just aren't made anymore. And certainly the vintage colors
don't run.

Manna. There is just something special about an older hat.
It is a piece of the past in your hand. You can't get that from
a new hat. There are so many tiny details, whether it's the
reeds that allow air flow in the front of a Borsalino's sweatband
or the typeface used in the liner or leather stamp or the name of
a hat store long gone. It's the real thing.

But of course you are right. Please do stick to the new hats.
We need to support our living hatters and I do plan to do so
soon. And anyway, you don't want those musty old hats.
More for me.

 

[Andykev]

Ebay has gotten $$$$$$$$$$$ for hats

Thank goodness most of my Ebay treasured hats were purchased over five years ago, when $25 was the going price, up to $75 for one that had a "bidding war" on it. I bought some really nice hats, and got burned a few times. The prices I see on Ebay now are rather high for what you get. And the "rare" good ones, like a Cavanagh, or a McLaughlan Sterling Beaver, those don't seem to appear.

If the prices continue like this, then I will likely sell 25 or so hats on Ebay, the ones I have duplicates of , or some that are too small. I started buying 7 1/4's as I used to think that was my size (based upon a hat that was marked but stretched bigger). Now I know what my size is, 7 3/8. I have a fine Borsalino, and a Dobbs new in box unblocked..but it is 1/4....the options I have are to reblock..but that destroys the vintage aspects of the hat. So I am undedided.

I agree, don't spend that much on a vintage ebay hat when you can get one from one of our own latters.

 

[John in Covina]

Perceived Value

I doubt that I would pay $170 plus for a vintage hat on Ebay. There is always a gamble with buying an item sight unseen, in spite of all the pictures and descriptions. Without being able to see it feel it smell it touch it and even hear it.

Now for some this is a money level thing. Someone with a higher income can speculate at a higher level, but my values would have stopped me at a much lower dollar level. Also if there is a bidding war and the ego's get involved then the end price can be much higher than the standard bids. For some it maybe the "Holy Grail" of hats others maybe fixated on a flavor of the month Hat. Who knows, perhaps they have a check list of what they are collecting and if it's the right hat in the right condition and the right size, well come hell or high water, I gotta have it.

I look for value and try to look for the hidden bargin over the high end area and know for most things there will be another coming up in a week or a month just keep your eyes peeled.

So I congradulate the winner, wish him the best of luck with his new hat. I also congradulate the seller, he's the one that really lucked out.

Happy bidding!

 

[Zemke Fan]

My one purchase so far...

was a 1950s Royal Stetson. Black fedora with a snap brim. Got it on eBay for $75.00 and it was in PRISTINE condition (looks never to have been worn). It came with an original hat box, so all of the stars lined up right for me on this one. The only problem (minor) is that it DOES look like a 1950s hat with the smaller brim. I am keeping my eye open for similar items like this, but with my fat head (7-3/4), I think the eBay pickin's will continue to be pretty poor.

BTW, I'm glad to be in such great company. You gents really know your hats and the arguments you advance for both vintage and new have helped to clairfy my thinking. Thanks, boys!

 

[photobyalan]

I would most definitely agree that a unique or very special vintage hat would be worth the price and would be more desirable than a modern hat of the same quality. But in this particular case, it's a Stetson Whippet. From what I've seen, that's a fairly common hat; by that I mean that there seem to be quite a few still available. At any given time, there is usually at least one for sale on eBay.

Yes, feltfan, you're right about it not always being necessary to clean and block a vintage hat. In this case, however, judging by the photo, it's going to be needed.

Don't get me wrong, I like vintage hats and I own a couple and plan on buying more. I just have a hard time seeing the point of paying so much for a hat that is not particularly rare nor in particulary excellent shape for its age.

 

[fedoralover]

Andykev and I used to bid against each other all the time on ebay. Well, I should say he would OUTBID me all the time on ebay. Apparently we both started buying hats about the same time, about 6 or 7 years ago for me. I remember some Borsalino's going for around $80, but most of the time they were much cheaper. But lets face it, those prices were way below market value and they always should have been higher. Books that put a value on antiques and collectables always had an Open Road in good shape valued at around $150 to $200. So the reality is, the prices on ebay are just starting to be where they should have been. Not much solace for the late comers in buying fedora's but markets in different items always go up and down. Right now it's up. Occasionaly you can still get a good deal, but just not as often.

Also I'm sure that the creation of the fedoralounge a few years ago has actually contributed to the prices going up. There are around 1600 members now and probably 3 times as many lurkers reading and getting educated about the right hats to buy and how to buy them. Thus more competition will mean higher prices.

Getting custom made fedora's used to be the rarity and now with the prices as high as they are they are starting to make more sense to a hat buyer. Buying on ebay is always a gamble and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Losing $25.00 for a hat that doesn't fit right or not being in the shape described doesn't sting you too bad. But getting stung out of $100 or more is a different story. When you can get a new high quality felt fedora made exactly to your size and the style you want for not too much more money, then custom is the way to go.

I mentioned this to Art about a week ago, that because the prices on ebay are going up he would probably end up with more business as a result. Just be thankful we have hatters like Art and Steve who will make you a custom fedora out of 100% beaver felt for under $300. Most other hatters charge $500 to over $600. for the same item.

Long live the Lounge for being a place that puts us in touch with these guys.

fedoralover

 

[Andykev]

Going, going, gone!

Andykev and I used to bid against each other all the time on ebay. Well, I should say he would OUTBID me all the time on ebay. Apparently we both started buying hats about the same time, about 6 or 7 years ago for me.

fedoralover

Yes, that is before I knew you, and before there was such a thing as "The Fedora Lounge", and before I knew my true head size, and before I realized that you get to a point where you look and say, don't I have enough already?

Another member, Besdor, used to outbid me on every item, and that was for such things as posters, hat stretchers, mini hat box gift card things, and of course hats. I lost many auction to Besdor.

But the good news folks, I don't buy hats on Ebay anymore. Got plenty of vintage, and likely enough to last my life time, say another 40 years (I wish).

 

[tonyb]

I'd be less reluctant to pay what some of those hats are fetching on eBay if I were more confident of what I was buying. A picture tells only so much, and the sellers rarely know much about what they're selling. Will the hat fit? Or can it, within reason, be made to fit? Are there little moth nibbles and other problems that don't show in the photos?
Still, I concur with budward and lenj. There IS something special about old things that are still in nice shape, especially old things that were meant to be used in the harsh out of doors (hats, cars, etc.) and eventually worn out and replaced. It's kind of like Will Rogers's observation about real estate: They just aren't making any more 1947 anythings, so owning and preserving such anythings brings some satisfaction. It does for me, anyway.
But keeping them in fine shape means not subjecting them to conditions that will wear them out. (Yes, you can wear out a hat.) I wouldn't use a '47 Packard for my daily commute, and I don't subject my vintage hats to everyday wear. (That's not a perfect analogy, of course. Cars ain't hats.) So if you want a really nice lid or three to wear all the time, I suggest you follow Alan's advice and get a 100 percent beaver felt custom made for you and buy a new one every now and then.
As to escalating prices: Well, it's both a good sign and a bad one. It's good that more people recognize that old hats in fine shape are generally superior to the new, off-the-shelf offerings at their local retailer. That leaves folks less likely to throw those old lids into the back of the pickup along with all of the other junk Uncle Elmo left behind when he croaked. And I'm guessing that if buyers are paying that much, they'll probably take good care of them. Those prices also encourage sellers to put those lids on the market. But spending $100 or more on a hat I've never held in my hands and dropped on my skull is a risk I'm reluctant to take. And it pains me to drop that kind of dough on something I routinely bought for much, much less just a few years ago. Call it "the eBay effect." A nice vintage lid could take up space in a secondhand store for an awfully long time awaiting a hat aficionado who is willing to pay more than a few bucks for it. But on eBay, a seller has an almost infinitely larger customer base. So of course it will sell for more.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

Rethinking things

Not that long ago, I said outright that I'd rather pay high for a vintage than buy new. I still think that there's much to be said for vintage lids, and when a good deal comes along, I'll jump on it. But as I've learned more about Art, Graham, and Steve, it seems to be a less expensive enterprise to go custom. When I made the statement originally, I had serious doubts that any new hat could equal the quality of even fairly low-end vintage hats. But with increasing prices on Ebay, it might cost more to play hit-or-miss to find a hat I love when I could just say "make me a custom Whippet clone." I'm not a collector. I want to wear my hats with regularity. So, instead of bidding high on hats that I can re-Ebay if I don't like or it doesn't fit (and hope to break even), I'll save my change to expand my custom arsenal. Besides, at the prices I'm getting for the wool clunkers of my youth (which are going higher than I paid for them!), custom is more affordable to me than ever before.

 

[FLJones]

high price of whippet

Gentlemen, as the soon to be new owner of the hat in question, let me add my 2 cents.

Like any auction on ebay, you can end up in a bidding war. Difficult to predict the popularity. Having lost a few, I decided I would go for it. There have been others in better shape. Hindsight tells me I should have bid more in the past. Who can tell what the future will bring, maybe higher prices. Sure it's a gamble, but so are most things in life.

So it comes down to relative value. I've spent more for dinner for two or for a high quality shirt. The hat will last a lifetime given proper care, whereas the dinner is only a memory and the shirt can be ruined in an instant. A vintage hat is still a bargain. Maybe not the bargain it once was, but still quite inexpensive relatively speaking. This hat will undoubtedly outlast me. Quite a bargain given the amount of use I will get from it.

I like hats, wear them all the time and purchase both good new and vintage. I patronize Art's new business as well as others. I find there is still a difference between vintage and new. Someday, maybe there will be more selection of quality, style and color in new hats. New hats of comparable quality still tend to be more expensive.

Anyway, I find it to be a learning adventure. This forum was helped immensely in my education. Thank you all for sharing you knowledge and may quality vintage hats continue to come to market.

 

[tonyb]

Congratulations, FL. It's good to see an old lid fall into the right hands. Hope it's all you hoped it would be.