What modern invention/innovation do you wish had *never* been developed?

[LizzieMaine]

I stated my point of view, and I explained why I believe as I do, and I responded to your challenges to my point of view. If you take offense at the fact that I don't show what you consider to be "proper respect," well, that's up to you. I fly the flag, but I don't worship it.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Or you can learn to do it yourself.

Most people simply don't have the resources to manufacture replacement parts themselves.

 

[HeyMoe]

I fly the flag, but I don't worship it.

I do both actually.

I think the "worship" part comes with having been in the service, understanding what those who came before me sacrificed (in both times of "peace" and war) so that I can fly it on my flag pole, and my personal relationship with the flag.

Maybe its stupid to worship a piece of cloth that I bought at the local flag shop. It is just a symbol after all. However when I remember that many more like it have stood atop hard fought and now hallowed ground, covered the caskets of many of my relatives, close friends, army buddies and will one day cover my father's and mine. I think about the men and women that have written a check for the amount of up to and including their life to serve this country and that flag. I think about where it stands on this world, and on other heavenly bodies and where it will be flown in the future. I think about seeing it raised on by three NYC firefighters at five pm on 9-11-01 over the remains of the WTC and all I can do is feel a sense of awe, honor and worship for a simple piece of cloth.

It didn't cost me much to fly it, but that flag cost more than anyone one of us will ever know.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I do both actually.

And that's your right. As long as you don't insist I do likewise, we'll get along fine.

I see the flag not just as a symbol of what was, but what could have been. I fly a 48-star flag, not because it's the flag of the Era, but because it was the flag under which the foundations for much of what we take for granted today was won, thru the shed blood of the working class. But I never, ever forget that was also the flag under which the Bonus Army was routed, and the flag carried by National Guardsmen who were used to brutally suppress strikes all over New England in the mid-thirties, and the flag carried by Americans who beat and mobbed other Americans during 1940 and 1941 simply because they refused to salute that flag.

Such people tried to take that flag away from people like me and turn it into a symbol of oppression, but by the strength of the common people they couldn't do it. I fly that flag today as a reminder that it can be used as a weapon for evil as well as for good -- and to never assume that those waving it necessarily have my best interests at heart.

 

[HeyMoe]

And that's your right. As long as you don't insist I do likewise, we'll get along fine.

I see the flag not just as a symbol of what was, but what could have been. I fly a 48-star flag, not because it's the flag of the Era, but because it was the flag under which the foundations for much of what we take for granted today was won, thru the shed blood of the working class. But I never, ever forget that was also the flag under which the Bonus Army was routed, and the flag carried by National Guardsmen who were used to brutally suppress strikes all over New England in the mid-thirties, and the flag carried by Americans who beat and mobbed other Americans during 1940 and 1941 simply because they refused to salute that flag.

Such people tried to take that flag away from people like me and turn it into a symbol of oppression, but by the strength of the common people they couldn't do it. I fly that flag today as a reminder that it can be used as a weapon for evil as well as for good -- and to never assume that those waving it necessarily have my best interests at heart.

I do understand that there is a dark side, and maybe you have hit upon a good compromise - the 48 star flag.

 

[Big J]

I stated my point of view, and I explained why I believe as I do, and I responded to your challenges to my point of view. If you take offense at the fact that I don't show what you consider to be "proper respect," well, that's up to you. I fly the flag, but I don't worship it.

Any fool can fly the flag and talk about their country.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Indeed.

 

[vitanola]

Most people simply don't have the resources to manufacture replacement parts themselves.

Well, I can purchase just about any part that I would ever need for my Flivver, for the Edison Phonograph in the closet, for the Radiola 28 and the Orthophonic Victrola Credenza in the living room of the new house, and for the CK Monitor Top refrigerator and the Magic Chef "Tiffin" range in the kitchen of said new house.

On the other hand, I cannot find certain important parts for my 1996 Chevrolet Tahoe, as they have been discontinued.

Neither can I keep my expensive turn-of-the-century Sony CD changer operating.

In 2002 (at the insistence of the Better Half) we remodeled the kitchen in the big house, installing 2 Bosch dishwashers, 2 Jenn-Air convection ovens, a GE Profile gas cooktop, a Profile smooth electric cooktop and a 25 cubic foot Frigidaire side-by-side refrigerator.

Both Bosch dishwashers were recalled.

Twice.

Even so they had both failed by 2007, at which time I installed one Maytag dishwasher.

That machine now needs a new touchpad, a $240.00 part. I have replaced it and the other dead Bosch unit with a pair of 1989 vintage used Hotpoint machines, the cheapest units sold at the time, which still work well.

Both convection ovens have gone through at least two control processor boards, one of the burners on the electric cook top has failed open, and though the gas cook top works the igniter sits and goes "Click-click-click" incessantly.

The refrigerator was recalled but once (faulty compressor, which was replaced) but it now sports a one-and-a-half-inch diameter rust hole in the freezer door just below the ice and water dispenser, a common problem with this model, we've been told.

Is it any wonder why some of us might be fed up?

 

[HudsonHawk]

Is it any wonder why some of us might be fed up?

Actually, yes it is. This is my point. It's not difficult at all to sell something at a price point where it's economical to replace expensive parts. Furthermore, doing so doesn't make the product better.

 

[vitanola]

Actually, yes it is. This is my point. It's not difficult at all to sell something at a price point where it's economical to replace expensive parts. Furthermore, doing so doesn't make the product better.

I see your point, Mr. Hawk, and it is a good one.

The refrigerator that I so like, the GE CK series, which is probably the most reliable domestic unit ever offered for sale (a 50 year study showed a failure rate of 0.2%/year) would still not be considered a good value today for it would be both too small and too expensive.

Most folks wouldn't care to drive a new Flivver even if they were sold for $3650, the price that Ford determined would be profitable at the 200,000 unit per year level when they did a cost study (for historical and publicity purposes) in 2002.

Even so, I feel just a bit put out, for when I remodeled our kitchen in 2002, I consigned a group of eighty-year-old appliances to the cellar. Now twelve years later those appliances have outlived their replacements.

I mean, why should a refrigerator Rust out in a decade?

Why should four out of seven expensive appliances have faced recalls?

The Jenn-air control boards are a particular peeve of mine. After replacing each unit twice I found that their power supply circuitry would fail due to faulty electrolytic condensers. I replaced the three condensers on each board with quality components (Panasonic or Nichon) at a cost of a dollar a board and have not had any further trouble. In fact, I have made this repair on quite a number of other Jenn-Air and Maytag oven control boards of this (1998-2004) general vintage. The repaired units seem to last a great deal longer than the expensive factory replacement boards, which apparently share their faulty electrolytics with the recalled original parts.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Crappy Chinese electronic components are a modern plague, and it isn't just "value priced" junk that uses them. We have a pair of very expensive pro-grade satellite receivers at the theatre for picking up the Met Opera simulcasts, and I've had to replace the power supply boards in both of them -- twice -- in just five years. I'd hate to think what this would have cost us if they'd croaked during the broadcast -- I would likely not be alive today to tell the tale, having been lynched with an HDMI cable by three hundred outraged old ladies.

There were junk components in the Era -- anybody who knows anything about radios spits on the ground at the mention of the word "Micamold" -- but they were the rare exception rather than the rule.

 

[Stearmen]

"Well, gee, we saved the world from Hitler -- with maybe a little help from the Russians, of course -- so give us a break. You people who're worried about racial and economic and social injustice in the good ole U. S. A. will just have to wait. We've got more important things to worry about."

Not everybody in postwar America thought that approach was a good idea -- Henry Wallace had a pretty good movement going for a little while, but he lacked the strength and moral vision of an FDR -- and within just a couple of years after the end of the war, those who dared to speak out about social injustice at home were being condemned and railroaded as pinkos and fellow travelers. Not exactly a badge of honor for the generation, and the pall that attitude cast over the country delayed any sort of meaningful progress on the social-justice front by at least a decade. And that delay, in turn, led to violence and riots in the sixties when people decided they were sick and tired of waiting around for what they were entitled to as Americans.

We often talk about the Sixties as the beginning of the end of civilization as we knew it. But the excesses of the Sixties were the direct result of the actions -- and inaction -- and the complacent materialism of the WWII generation during the postwar era. It didn't have to be that way.

You do realize, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, and most of the Congress men that passed the Civil Rights bills, and sent Federal troops to desegregate schools were all WWII vets? The entire movement was led by adults, not a bunch of young Hippies. A lot of them lost their careers for their brave stance on equality. Maybe it was not fast enough for you, but a lot was packed into a couple of decades. Which is sad that so many people hate those decades.

 

[Zombie_61]

...I mean, why should a refrigerator Rust out in a decade?

Why should four out of seven expensive appliances have faced recalls?

The phrase "manufactured by the lowest bidder" comes to mind.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You do realize, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, and most of the Congress men that passed the Civil Rights bills, and sent Federal troops to desegregate schools were all WWII vets? The entire movement was led by adults, not a bunch of young Hippies. A lot of them lost their careers for their brave stance on equality. Maybe it was not fast enough for you, but a lot was packed into a couple of decades. Which is sad that so many people hate those decades.

I myself have pointed this out here more than once -- although it also has to be said that most of those politicians of the late fifties and early sixties only took a stand when they realized which way the wind was blowing -- and you'll note I gave credit where credit was due to people, such as the Wallace Progressives, who were willing to take an uncompromising public stand in making full civil rights a primary plank in their platform at a time when the major parties were, at best, soft-pedaling the issue. But the fact remains that the main reason progress lagged for so long as it did was that Joe Blow in the street either couldn't have really cared less -- or was too busy looking for Commies under the bed. During the witch-hunts of 1947-54, affliation with any kind of civil rights organization put the person involved at risk for being tagged a "fellow traveler." Consider the following excerpt from a political party platform, published in 1936:

We demand that the Negro people be guaranteed complete equality, equal rights to jobs, equal pay for equal work, the full right to organize, vote, serve on juries, and hold public office. Segregation and discrimination against Negroes must be declared a crime. Heavy penalties must be established against mob rule, floggers, and kidnappers, with the death penalty for lynchers. We demand the enforcement of the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments to the Constitution.

Sounds like something all decent Americans would endorse, right, especially all those WW2 vets who overthrew Fascism abroad. That's what they were fighting for, right? Well, that particular political party platform was that of the Communist Party USA -- and therefore, in the minds of too, too many people in the postwar era, if you had stood up, even as far back as 1936, and said "yeah, damn right it's time something was done about that," why, you were spouting Red propaganda and you had to be silenced. "Communists spouted off about civil rights. Therefore, if you spout off about civil rights, you are a Communist." That's how the thinking went -- and that's why too many people were afraid or unwilling to take a stand. In their hearts they might very well have agreed with every demand given above, no matter who declared it -- but most of them lacked the courage of their convictions. They were too afraid of what the neighbors, or their boss, or the FBI might think. Political paranoia trumped human decency. This came out again and again and again during the era of "Red Channels," where entertainment personalities were being blacklisted for things like "endorsed the Committee to End Jim Crow in Baseball." The climate created in this environment of postwar paranoia left a chill against anything remotely "progressive" that lingered well into the sixties.

This tarring of progressivism as "a danger to our American way of life" was a violent setback to the civil rights movement -- which had been, in fact, making real progress during the prewar era. The original March on Washington was to have taken place in 1942 under the leadership of A. Philip Randolph of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, but was cancelled when President Roosevelt agreed to issue an executive order prohibiting racial discrimination in any business accepting defense contracts. It would be more than twenty years before Randolph -- who, himself, was viciously attacked by red-baiters for years -- was able to lead another march.

 

[Gregg Axley]

The phrase "manufactured by the lowest bidder" comes to mind.

I'm familiar with that phrase.

I'll go with this theme and say "Disposable Goods."
Low bid...I'm actually one of the few in our entire agency that is dedicated to be "anti" low bid.
Not because I want us to blow all the money we take in, but to support LOCAL companies who sell a better product.
Low bid doesn't have to mean low quality.
And in the past few years, I've done my best to make sure low bid includes LOCAL, in as many bids as I can fit them.
Keep the jobs in town, with companies that have been here 20+ years, and who's owners live within a half day's drive or so.
If there is an issue, I don't have to speak to someone that doesn't speak my language, I just hop in the car and drive over to the business.
More and more I'm hearing "Really? I've never heard of that business. I didn't know we had something like that in town", for various businesses that have been here over 30-40yrs!!!!!
Low bid....I've spent 27yrs knowing what that was, and the disappointment it's caused.
I'm not going to tell you the last low bid product I bought, because we had to take it due to a technicality.
But it sounds like Jeep and it looks like a Liberty, and I have over 25 of them. :eusa_doh:
That's okay, Ford has gotten better with their pricing, and my "low bid" item has changed to 20 of the same model in the past 2yrs, with minimal quality/mechanical issues. Shocking, but refreshing.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Even so, I feel just a bit put out, for when I remodeled our kitchen in 2002, I consigned a group of eighty-year-old appliances to the cellar. Now twelve years later those appliances have outlived their replacements.
Rust out in a decade?

I certainly understand that people feel put out by having to replace something after a few years. But comparing them to older items is largely perception and relativity. Cars in the 1920's broke down. Appliances broke down. There used to be such a job as "television repairman", who would drive to your home in a van to fix your broken set. That position is obsolete now, not because televisions are more or less reliable, but because the cost of them has come down to the point where the price of the whole is less than the price of the individual components and repair labor. There is a reason that parts for older cars and appliances are still out there, and it's not nostalgia.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The waste of resources, however, is very substantial. Or maybe they don't charge you for throwing away old appliances, computer monitors and TV sets at your local dump.

 

[HudsonHawk]

The waste of resources, however, is very substantial. Or maybe they don't charge you for throwing away old appliances, computer monitors and TV sets at your local dump.

Now this is probably the more valid issue, and lastly because of the cost of running the local landfill. Being in the oil business, I can go on all day about the *real* problems of running out of oil, and it ain't the price of gasoline in Peoria.

 

[vitanola]

I certainly understand that people feel put out by having to replace something after a few years. But comparing them to older items is largely perception and relativity. Cars in the 1920's broke down. Appliances broke down. There used to be such a job as "television repairman", who would drive to your home in a van to fix your broken set. That position is obsolete now, not because televisions are more or less reliable, but because the cost of them has come down to the point where the price of the whole is less than the price of the individual components and repair labor. There is a reason that parts for older cars and appliances are still out there, and it's not nostalgia.

Well, the 1935 refrigerator in the new house has in its lifetime been repaired. Once. It had a new door gasket installed about ten years ago. The 1929 range had the oven regulator calibrated at the same time. They did not have poorly designed and constructed electronic control boards which fail after just a few years.

I take it that you do not believe that having four out of seven appliances, units which cost a total of upwards of fifteen thousand dollars, fail in a decade is unacceptable?

It appears that you are suggesting that these modern items are more reliable that their predecessors. This is most emphatically not the case.

The Better Half has (finally) admitted that the new appliances are neither more convenient to use than the quality antique units nor are they easier to keep clean. We are dealing with a matter of style over substance. Note that we really use our kitchen. We cook from scratch, bake breads and pastries twice a week, we make a point to avoid prepared frozen foods.


By the way, televisions ARE indeed more reliable. The solid state units of th late 1980's seemed to reach a peak of reliability, and most newer instruments are pretty nearly as good, cheaper though they may be.

Perhaps parts are available for some of these older items because folks actually want to repair them.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think of it more along the lines of stewardship. We don't own the planet, or any part of the planet. We're merely using it for the seventy or eighty years we live, and then it passes on to somebody else. What right do any of us have to waste anything?