What Does The FL Think of So-called Black Friday?

[Guttersnipe]

Those in power that choose to manufacture their goods overseas in unsafe and disgusting work conditions where individuals have no rights are no better than slave holders. They just don't actually see their slaves or beat them with their own hands.

"Fun" fact: Because of the specific economics of slavery in the U.S., by the 19th century, domestic slaves represented a minority of the overall slave population. Thus, most slaveholders didn't see or beat slaves with their own hands either; they had estate managers and slave drivers to do it for them.

If it quacks like a duck . . .

 

[Guttersnipe]

Ya'll do realize that when the US was developing, we were no better? People overseas bought US-made goods and we were killing people too.
Just sayin'.

Do two wrongs make a right?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ya'll do realize that when the US was developing, we were no better? People overseas bought US-made goods and we were killing people too.
Just sayin'.

That's why the good Lord made unions. And when people had fought for and won their rights, well, those thugs and opportunists whose love of the dollar was equalled only by their lack of morality found Other, Browner people to exploit. But eventually they're going to run out of fodder -- and we'll have to confront the fact that we simply don't have a sustainable system. A system that depends on exploitation for growth is neither sustainable nor justifiable.

And yes, I know someone's going to say "well, compared to what they had, Those People in Bangladesh who work in the factories are so much better off than the ones who sit in the villages eating their own dung." Just like certain fine Southern gentlemen used to say back around 1850 about how they were saving those poor savages from Africa from their heathen practices and teaching them civilization. It might be different lyrics, but it's still the same old tune.

 

[ButteMT61]

Do two wrongs make a right?

You miss my point. We have done the same to our own people, how do we expect to do better by others? Frankly, I feel that while I don't like how we do business today, it's also on the shoulders of the people and governments in those countries to make progress like we have here.
We can't do it from here - not even if we stopped buying those goods altogether.
BTW, some companies are bringing production/assembly back into the US. Apple have made some good strides, and now that they are getting good press, others are flooding suit. Not fast enough for my liking, but it's happening. They laughingly call it "insourcing". What malarky.

 

[ButteMT61]

That's why the good Lord made unions. And when people had fought for and won their rights, well, those thugs and opportunists whose love of the dollar was equalled only by their lack of morality found Other, Browner people to exploit. But eventually they're going to run out of fodder -- and we'll have to confront the fact that we simply don't have a sustainable system. A system that depends on exploitation for growth is neither sustainable nor justifiable.

And yes, I know someone's going to say "well, compared to what they had, Those People in Bangladesh who work in the factories are so much better off than the ones who sit in the villages eating their own dung." Just like certain fine Southern gentlemen used to say back around 1850 about how they were saving those poor savages from Africa from their heathen practices and teaching them civilization. It might be different lyrics, but it's still the same old tune.

Yep, I agree pretty much on all counts. I've never belonged to any unions, but my wife and son do. I see how she'd get hosed if not for them. I also think some unions are bad - or the folks running them are.

As for the people in xyx country being better off - I've read that some in those places indeed say that's true. I certainly can't say which is true - it's not ME. I'd like to think that even though by my standards it sucks, but IS better than the place without crappy jobs.

I think unions should do more here and I think that any union supporting any politician that I am aware of should be questioned. We have made it so easy to export jobs and import talent that I can't imagine how much longer this experiment has left.

 

[dh66]

Ya'll do realize that when the US was developing, we were no better? People overseas bought US-made goods and we were killing people too.
Just sayin'.

We're still no better. Just check out the working conditions the next time you see a new shopping center being built or walk through a poultry processing plant. And when the long day is done follow some of those good shepards home and see what kind of conditions they live in. Ask the next person who serves you a hamburger how the american dream is shaking out for them, or for the folks who come in afterhours to clean the law offices and boardrooms. People born into poverty with no access to a decent education or any example of how "better" folks behave- ask them why they can't break the cycle. Why in the world should folks struggling to make it in the trailer park or the housing projects be expected to give one @#%& about people in Bangladesh who are in the same boat they're in. It's hard to worry much about other peoples problems when you're drowning in your own. Do you think the ceo of mcdonalds or walmart gives a @#%& that his employees can't afford to pay bills AND eat, and have to depend on public subsidies. Who do you think pays for that?? Suddenly that new big screen isn't really so cheap after all.


All that said, I just had to go up to w.m. to get some dog food and new batteries for the baby swing. Man, the meth heads can be entertaining when they're trying to hold it together in front of the off duty cop working security at the front of the store.

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[LizzieMaine]

Why in the world should folks struggling to make it in the trailer park or the housing projects be expected to give one @#%& about people in Bangladesh who are in the same boat they're in. It's hard to worry much about other peoples problems when you're drowning in your own.

And don't think the people running the show don't know that. It's a key part of the strategy -- do everything possible to prevent different factions of working people from realizing how much power they could have if they could stand united.

Instead, play the working class against each other in every possible way -- white vs. black, citizen vs. immigrant, American vs. Those Other People, and then relax and put your feet up, knowing that'll keep them busy and off your back for a good long time. And maybe throw them a little bit of bread and circuses every December, maybe some door-buster bargains to get them all riled up and fighting, just for spits and giggles. It's like 21st century cockfighting -- and there's nobody here but us chickens.

 

[ButteMT61]

We're still no better. Just check out the working conditions the next time you see a new shopping center being built or walk through a poultry processing plant. And when the long day is done follow some of those good shepards home and see what kind of conditions they live in. Ask the next person who serves you a hamburger how the american dream is shaking out for them, or for the folks who come in afterhours to clean the law offices and boardrooms. People born into poverty with no access to a decent education or any example of how "better" folks behave- ask them why they can't break the cycle. Why in the world should folks struggling to make it in the trailer park or the housing projects be expected to give one @#%& about people in Bangladesh who are in the same boat they're in. It's hard to worry much about other peoples problems when you're drowning in your own. Do you think the ceo of mcdonalds or walmart gives a @#%& that his employees can't afford to pay bills AND eat, and have to depend on public subsidies. Who do you think pays for that?? Suddenly that new big screen isn't really so cheap after all.


All that said, I just had to go up to w.m. to get some dog food and new batteries for the baby swing. Man, the meth heads can be entertaining when they're trying to hold it together in front of the off duty cop working security at the front of the store.

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

Serving hamburgers was never meant to be a job to sustain a family, was it?
I always thought those gigs were for kids learning the ways of being an adult while working towards something better?
Saying there's no access to break the cycle as you says isn't on the government or Mickey D's to furnish. I have no idea what a "fair wage" is for a custodian, or a burger flipper. I do know I never expected that one could raise a family doing such things.

We have essentially free education in many states with excellent community colleges. I can't be totally on the side of your points. All of my family started dirt-poor. Less than dirt poor. I do know my folks didn't have us kids until they were somewhat capable of supporting us. And I am not some heartless lug, I just don't think all the anger is in the right place here.

 

[Tomasso]

And who are among the largest holders of equity in these evil corporations, hedge funds, private equity groups,etc.........yep, union controlled pension plans. Dirty little secrets........

 

[jamespowers]

And who are among the largest holders of equity in these evil corporations, hedge funds, private equity groups,etc.........yep, union controlled pension plans. Dirty little secrets........

Not only unions but government worker pensions as well.

 

[Tomasso]

Not only unions but government worker pensions as well.

CalPERS have got their fingers in some dodgy stuff, like a big chunk of the Carlyle Group. Workers Unite!

 

[sheeplady]

You miss my point. We have done the same to our own people, how do we expect to do better by others? Frankly, I feel that while I don't like how we do business today, it's also on the shoulders of the people and governments in those countries to make progress like we have here.

I don't like it if we do it to our own people or if we do it to others.

Any company that participates in this enslavement is no better than those who participated in the slave trade. It wasn't just up to the people owning slaves or governments to stop participating in slavery- it was up to *everyone* in the process to own up their contribution to it.

An ethical person wouldn't say to the slave trader: "Well, you know, it is up to the governments to outlaw slavery. And it's up to the people in Africa to stop tribal warfare and capturing people. And it's up to the people of African to make the progress the white man has in Europe and the Americas."
You'd say: "Stop dealing in people, you *#$%^&*!"

 

[Guttersnipe]

And who are among the largest holders of equity in these evil corporations, hedge funds, private equity groups,etc.........yep, union controlled pension plans. Dirty little secrets........

Not only unions but government worker pensions as well.

Because of non-disclosure agreements and my fiduciary duty to clients, I cannot name specific organizations. However, I can say every Taft-Hartley regulated pension fund I've personally dealt with has had specific "ideological criteria" covenants regarding direct investments.

 

[sheeplady]

I have no idea what a "fair wage" is for a custodian, or a burger flipper. I do know I never expected that one could raise a family doing such things.

Have you seriously never spoken to a custodian with a family before?

I'm kind of shocked... every custodian I know of has had a family. And I've never known a custodian under 18 or about 30 for that matter.

Remember that there are only two people with a key to every office in a building: the owner and the custodian. Think about that really carefully.

 

[dh66]

Serving hamburgers was never meant to be a job to sustain a family, was it?
I always thought those gigs were for kids learning the ways of being an adult while working towards something better?
Saying there's no access to break the cycle as you says isn't on the government or Mickey D's to furnish. I have no idea what a "fair wage" is for a custodian, or a burger flipper. I do know I never expected that one could raise a family doing such things.

We have essentially free education in many states with excellent community colleges. I can't be totally on the side of your points. All of my family started dirt-poor. Less than dirt poor. I do know my folks didn't have us kids until they were somewhat capable of supporting us. And I am not some heartless lug, I just don't think all the anger is in the right place here.

We have essentially free education down here, but you get what you pay for. I too came from a background that was far from well off, but I do o.k. now because (a) I've worked my ass off, and (b) 30 years ago when I was in school you could still get a decent public education and the state university was not priced out of reach of the working class. The standard here now is that high school teachers are requured to be able to read and comprehend on an 8th grade level. Can I say that again - 8th grade level. And the cost of even community college is astronomical, so with all the blue collar manufacturing jobs having gone overseas in the last couple of generations, what is a poor kid who graduates with a sub-par education supposed to do. There are no jobs left except the service industry, unless you want to go into hock the rest of your life for college.
People from yours and my generations had a lot more going for us than kids today do.

I'm not angry, by the way. I'm very thankful for what I've got. I've lived other places where the working people REALLY have it rough. And here in the southern part of my state there are people living in the black belt who survive on less than $3,000 a year. We struggle financially sometimes, but having seen true poverty up close I would never suggest that we are poor.

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[jamespowers]

CalPERS have got their fingers in some dodgy stuff, like a big chunk of the Carlyle Group. Workers Unite!

Yes, you don't have to remind me. :doh:

 

[jamespowers]

Because of non-disclosure agreements and my fiduciary duty to clients, I cannot name specific organizations. However, I can say every Taft-Hartley regulated pension fund I've personally dealt with has had specific "ideological criteria" covenants regarding direct investments.

Yeah rrrrriiiiiigghht. That is why they are broke. Great job they are doing. :rofl:

 

[Tomasso]

, I can say every Taft-Hartley regulated pension fund I've personally dealt with has had specific "ideological criteria" covenants regarding direct investments.

Did the Teamsters Central States Pension Fund have one of those covenants when the gave Tony Accardo the keys to the vault?

 

[jamespowers]

Did the Teamsters Central States Pension Fund have one of those covenants when the gave Tony Accardo the keys to the vault?

:rofl: Yes.:doh:

 

[Guttersnipe]

Did the Teamsters Central States Pension Fund have one of those covenants when the gave Tony Accardo the keys to the vault?

Your homework assignment for tonight, A.C., is to write and essay on the straw man logical fallacy .