Western Ranch Outfitters / Stockmens Catalogs

[tonyb]

Yes, I beginning to despair that much of the variation I have been attributing to genuine differences in style and quality should actually be attributed only to differences in marketing strategy.

AF

Ditto.

I find these old ads telling in many ways. They offer clues into the whys and wherefores of the stuff only people like us much care about -- the various quality levels of vintage hats, and whether what might appear to be a quality distinction is really more about marketing.

But those ads speak volumes about the greater culture. Note, for instance, that every single man depicted is of the Caucasian persuasion. I really, really doubt we'd see that today.

 

[gtdean48]

I really like B & C on page 33 or 2nd page of the posting. 2 totally different looking Open Roads due to brim width & shape.

 

[Sam Craig]

Dang ... can you imagine paying $100 for a hat in 1956?

I remember when my dad bought a great 1950 Pontiac work car for $50 ... drove it for two or three years ... taught me to drive in it ... then sold it for $75 to a guy who drove it forever.

$100 was a lot of money ... anybody got a clue what the equivilent would be today?

Just wondering

Sam

PS Great catalog ... thanks for sharing

 

[tonyb]

Dang ... can you imagine paying $100 for a hat in 1956?

I remember when my dad bought a great 1950 Pontiac work car for $50 ... drove it for two or three years ... taught me to drive in it ... then sold it for $75 to a guy who drove it forever.

$100 was a lot of money ... anybody got a clue what the equivilent would be today?

Just wondering

Sam

PS Great catalog ... thanks for sharing

Yup, a hundred bucks was a serious expenditure in 1956. For most folks anyway. I recall my dad buying a 1940-something Dodge in the early '60s. If memory serves, he paid 10 bucks and a fifth of whiskey for it, and the seller supplied a full tank of gas. My little sister was embarrassed to be seen in it. Other than its age and what that implied about the financial circumstances of the people who rode around in it, there was nothing wrong with the car -- no body damage or rust or anything like that. Me, I dug it. It was an era when body styles changed quite a bit year to year and the Old Man's pre-war looking car (even if it was made in the first year or so after the war) was decidedly declasse.

Interesting, ain't it, that while "city" hats all but disappeared from the common man's wardrobe, Western styles held their own among the gents who favored that look. Just thinkin' out loud here, but I wonder if part of the reason for that could be that the Western styles have remained pretty much unchanged in all these years, as that groovy old catalog illustrates.

Sure, there are now Western styles that weren't around 50-some years ago, but a person wouldn't have much trouble finding hats quite similar to those seen in those old catalog pages at most any Western wear shop.

 

[handlebar bart]

a mode edge thin ribbon 'Legend'. Now that is cool

 

[barrowjh]

The GDP deflator gives a multiple of about 6 from 1956, or $100 bought goods in 1956 that would cost you $600 or so today. I tried another inflation calculator site and it produced a result of $780. The US was fixing the price of gold at the time at $35 per oz, or $100 would buy you 2.85 oz of gold (but we were prohibited from owning any gold). At today's price over $1,300 you are looking at a price north of $3,500 (2.85 oz) which is a bit outsized.

However, during our visit to the Winchester factory in March, Greg Fiske told us about a customer (the Optimo shop in Bisbee AZ) that came to him with some really fine quality belly beaver fur from South America that he made into 5 blanks. One was finished into a cowboy hat for Greg Fiske, which he wore to the dinner at High Point. He told us the other 4 were made into custom hats which priced starting at $2,000 - for a basic western thin ribbon cowboy hat. I suspect that one of those hats, if made to the highest standard, might approach $3,000 but I am just guessing about that. All I remember is that Greg told us that Optimo's starting price for the other 4 began at $2,000. (Bisbee AZ Optimo, not same as Chicago Optimo)

I believe there are some folks (London?) still making bespoke shoes, if you have $4,000+ to lay down for a pair of shoes. The free market is still out there - always ready to show you the reality of what 50+ years of 'currency stability' as defined by the US Federal Reserve really means. If you retire on a fixed income and make the mistake of living too long, might end up eating dog food because that will be all you can afford.

Dang ... can you imagine paying $100 for a hat in 1956?

I remember when my dad bought a great 1950 Pontiac work car for $50 ... drove it for two or three years ... taught me to drive in it ... then sold it for $75 to a guy who drove it forever.

$100 was a lot of money ... anybody got a clue what the equivilent would be today?

Just wondering

Sam

PS Great catalog ... thanks for sharing

 

[Chinaski]

If you retire on a fixed income and make the mistake of living too long, might end up eating dog food because that will be all you can afford.

Hey, we can all eat our hats...

 

[The Good]

Those are all great looking and unique hats. Makes one wonder where they are lying around to this day... I would personally love to own the Stetson "Lone Star," "Rocking JB," and the "Open Road" described in that catalogue.

 

[RBH]

I like the crease in the thin ribbons, kinda cattleman-kinda fedora.

 

[barrowjh]

I find myself looking at this one again because of the "Sovereign" on page 3 (page 34) - priced at $20 roughly on par with the 3XXX hats, a lightweight 'made from the best quality beaver fur felt.' In that lightweight configuration, the 3XXX beaver option is significantly cheaper at $15. The beaver 25 is described as 'fine beaver fur soft felt.' The Sovereign is similarly described in the catalog on page 7 of the Stetson Stuff string (1952), with same prices. I had previously thought that if the hat's liner nor sweatband made mention of beaver, then there was no beaver content, but this flies in the face of that. The 'Sovereign' marketing name is a cross-over from the fedora side (non-westerns) and this gives us a clue - the Sovereign level of quality was at least a substantially beaver blend, and may have been an all-beaver (medium to mediocre grade of beaver in that case) felt. These catalogs confirm that the Royal and Royal Deluxe had no beaver content. We are missing a reference for the Imperial grade, however, and I wonder if that reference could be the Kingston (7XXXXXXX) - could the Imperial have been equivalent to 7XXXXXXX clear-beaver quality?

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Further, I'm learning that my beloved Open Road hasn't traditionally been at the top of the Stetson line. In fact, it seems to have once been almost starter hat. Dang! My Lyndon Johnson and my Harry Truman...my heros...wearing a starter hat? Well, Mildred, maybe they weren't wearing Open Roads, after all. And, of course, I've learned that there is a list of other hat maker's Open Road clones that is a mile long and many of them are better hats than the Open Road.

I’m beginning to think I was happier just being ignorant.

AF

You need to put a patch on your burst bubble! The Open Road came in many quality levels. The circa 1951 ad introducing the new Estes Tan color noted that the Open Road line was available priced from $12.50 to $100. A $100 Open Road was far from a "starter" hat.

And LBJ didn't wear Stetsons, he wore Resistols.

 

[jimmy the lid]

I find myself looking at this one again because of the "Sovereign" on page 3 (page 34) - priced at $20 roughly on par with the 3XXX hats, a lightweight 'made from the best quality beaver fur felt.' In that lightweight configuration, the 3XXX beaver option is significantly cheaper at $15. The beaver 25 is described as 'fine beaver fur soft felt.' The Sovereign is similarly described in the catalog on page 7 of the Stetson Stuff string (1952), with same prices. I had previously thought that if the hat's liner nor sweatband made mention of beaver, then there was no beaver content, but this flies in the face of that. The 'Sovereign' marketing name is a cross-over from the fedora side (non-westerns) and this gives us a clue - the Sovereign level of quality was at least a substantially beaver blend, and may have been an all-beaver (medium to mediocre grade of beaver in that case) felt. These catalogs confirm that the Royal and Royal Deluxe had no beaver content. We are missing a reference for the Imperial grade, however, and I wonder if that reference could be the Kingston (7XXXXXXX) - could the Imperial have been equivalent to 7XXXXXXX clear-beaver quality?

Thanks, JtL. I am interested in your thoughts on my post #30 about the 'Western Ranch Outfitters' catalog
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...ern-Ranch-Outfitters...winter-1956-1957/page3
the catalog states that $20 Sovereigns are 'best quality beaver' and this price is equal to (sometimes more than) 3X beaver hats. Granted, the 7X clear beaver hats carry a $50 price more than double that of the Sovereigns, so it is difficult to believe that both are all beaver - the difference being the quality of beaver and finish of the felt only. So I am thinking that the Sovereign probably had at least as much beaver content as a 3X in those days, maybe more, but was probably not all beaver. But, maybe am wrong - could there have been that much difference ($20 vs $50) between two all-beaver felts?

If so, then the 7X would have been strictly from the belly area (and from carefully selected animals), and must have been through a more severe sorting routine. Based on what we saw at Winchester, maybe some of that price differential would have been for the extra time it would take for such a fine beaver fur to settle onto the spinning cone, as I remember Greg stating that the beaver just takes forever because it is so light in comparison to hare or rabbit.

John --

I do have a few thoughts. First off, my own inclination is not to read too much into the descriptions given in catalogues such as the one featured in this thread. There is definitely some useful information provided, but the descriptions themselves are part of the retailer's own marketing efforts, and, I think, should be taken with a grain of salt. So, even though the Sovereign is described as being made from "best quality beaver fur felt," I don't think that we can assume too much from that. In other words, we can't assume from that description that the Sovereign was 100% beaver. The description also leaves open the possibility that the Sovereign contained an unspecified percentage of beaver fur in the blend.

Remember that the hierarchy of quality/marketing designations for ORs was Royal, Royal DeLuxe, 3X Beaver, Sovereign/20, "25", 7X Clear Beaver and "100". I have always assumed that the first level of an all-beaver felt was the 7X. The kinds of distinctions you are making with regard to quality of beaver fur/finish is one that I would associate with the difference between a 7X (selling for $50) and a "100" (selling for $100) -- since these are both all-beaver lids.

My own sense is that the 3X, the Sovereign and the "25" all contained varying percentages of beaver fur in the blend. I own all of the above designations except for a "25", although I have had the chance to handle a "25" owned by gtdean. There were some absolutely excellent Royal Stetson and Royal DeLuxe Stetsons made in the early/mid 50's -- and, even though they may not have contained beaver fur in the mix, they have a superb hand (and, IMHO, compare favorably to Borso Alessandrias in that regard). I can definitely feel a difference between the Royal Deluxe and the 3X -- the 3X is noticeably denser and smoother and leads me to believe that there really is some beaver fur in the blend (although I am aware that some here have voiced the opinion that 3X's contain no beaver).

I recently acquired a Sovereign OR, and the smoothness/denseness factor really does go up quite a few notches from the 3X. It is a very smooth/dense felt that is much more in the direction of a 7X. Ditto on the "25." So, I would agree with you that the Sovereign and the "25" seem to have a more substantial beaver content. And, as I say, the feel of these lids leans much more in the direction of the 7X Clear Beaver.

As for the "Imperial" designation -- Imperials from the mid-40's to early 50's were priced at $15. It appears that, by sometime in the early 50's, the Imperial designation was replaced by the "3X Beaver" designation at that same price point.

So, that was a mouthful! In any event, these are just my own observations, but I hope this is responsive to your posts.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[barrowjh]

JTL, thanks for the post. I needed this information:
"Remember that the hierarchy of quality/marketing designations for ORs was Royal, Royal DeLuxe, 3x, Sovereign/20, "25", 7X Clear Beaver and "100". "
and the history on the Imperial to set me straight. Everything seems perfectly logical, and I rely on others' (your's) research that the price hierarchy matches up, so this clears up a lot of confusion for me. Thanks for taking the time to key that in; I suspect all of this has been hashed out before (maybe several times), but it is difficult to find it all, so it helps to get a concise hierarchy / explanation here.

 

[Chinaski]

JTL, thanks for the post. I needed this information:
"Remember that the hierarchy of quality/marketing designations for ORs was Royal, Royal DeLuxe, 3x, Sovereign/20, "25", 7X Clear Beaver and "100". "
and the history on the Imperial to set me straight.

:arated: Thank you for posting, JtL.

 

[carouselvic]

The Denver Dry Goods Co. 1936-1937

 

[carouselvic]

The Denver Dry Goods Co. 1936-1937

 

[carouselvic]

The Denver Dry Goods Co. 1936-1937

 

[Benzadmiral]

I'll take a St. King or a Kingsway, por favor!

 

[carouselvic]

The Denver Dry Goods Co. 1935-1936

 

[carouselvic]

The Denver Dry Goods Co. 1935-1936