Welting a raw brim

[Mulceber]

You are half right Mr. Walls, they have done the process for Brad Bowers, sending him the examples of the stages it goes through ( 32 steps) but have told me flat out "NOT AT ANY PRICE..NO WAY". The investment in time and the needed inventory to cover all sizes is just more than the market can bear.

Topdog, I can now work with my dress weights and get a welted edge. It's something I've been working on for a while.

Carldelo, I'd urge you to bind it rather than welting. You'd end up with less that a 2" brim.

That really is a shame, although I've heard something similar from Steve, so I'm not really surprised. I really am disappointed at that, as I'd love to get a Cavanagh edge but don't think I'd be able to afford one on ebay (large head size + cavanagh edge = EXTREMELY expensive hat). So there's no way they'd consider doing a run, even in bulk? (say, 500 felt bodies - I'm sure you'd be able to sell 500 Cavanagh edge VS hats on the lounge) Oh well, guess I'll have to keep dreaming. -M

 

[m000m000]

As far as I know/recall reading here on the lounge, the thing with the Cavanagh edge is that the hat size is set in stone already in the felting process - once you're done with it and have the raw felt body, you you can use it to finish a hat in maybe a variation of 2 sizes next to one other, unlike the case of with normal felt bodies, where you can always cut away the excess to trim the final size.

Thus, when you account the variation you'd need for different sizes, different colors, you quickly come to a conclusion where it's either cost-phrohibitive for the felt maker to go through with it because of the small volume, or simply too costly for the hatter because of the large minimum order needed and the much increased amount of required handwork considerably raising the price per hat body.


If the high-end felt hat market suddenly explodes in size and demand (haha), maybe things will become different, but until then...

 

[Art Fawcett]

As far as I know/recall reading here on the lounge, the thing with the Cavanagh edge is that the hat size is set in stone already in the felting process - once you're done with it and have the raw felt body, you you can use it to finish a hat in maybe a variation of 2 sizes next to one other, unlike the case of with normal felt bodies, where you can always cut away the excess to trim the final size.

Thus, when you account the variation you'd need for different sizes, different colors, you quickly come to a conclusion where it's either cost-phrohibitive for the felt maker to go through with it because of the small volume, or simply too costly for the hatter because of the large minimum order needed and the much increased amount of required handwork considerably raising the price per hat body.


If the high-end felt hat market suddenly explodes in size and demand (haha), maybe things will become different, but until then...

Spot on correct Moo

 

[Brad Bowers]

The economies of scale cannot be achieved today at current demand levels, it's as simple as that. The C&K/Hat Corp. factory had one whole portion dedicated to the production of Cavanagh Edge hats, with I-don't-know-how-many skilled workers turning out the quantities of hats necessary to make the price worth the effort. That's why Winchester, and HATCO, and everybody else doesn't want to invest in the equipment and training necessary for it.

The mindset of today's factories is concerned about economies of scale, which is why we get the "No way, no how," response from them. I still feel that Cavanagh Edges could be produced today as one-off, premium, boutique-type items, at a price level that aligns with the low demand for them. My samples are proof of that. It's just that today's management doesn't think in those terms.

Brad

 

[Viper Man]

A newly discovered `Art`...

AMAZING! Art, I'll definitely be requesting this edge treatment on my next VS hat. That's about as close as you can get to the appearance of a felted edge these days and it looks great.

Daizawaguy, that hat is a lightweight/featherweight felt, correct?

 

[kaosharper1]

I'd also like to show again the double stitching Art did on the underwelt of my recent Jazzman variant. It looks very cool:

Its also a good alternative to the cavanaugh edge. Optimo also has a nice welted edge. I just bought a hat from their first year (15 years ago) in a heavier felt. The edge is folded under and sewn so it looks "rounded" if you know what I mean.

 

[tonyb]

... I really am disappointed at that, as I'd love to get a Cavanagh edge but don't think I'd be able to afford one on ebay (large head size + cavanagh edge = EXTREMELY expensive hat)...

One possibility (maybe not a likelihood, granted, but still a possibility) is to rework an old undersized Cav edge hat into something that would fit. Provided you had enough body to start with -- enough crown height and brim width to allow you to lose some of either or both of those dimensions in the upsizing process -- you could end up with a larger sized hat from a smaller sized body. The obstacle, of course, is finding the right old hat body to rework. Still, it can be done. I've quite radically reworked a couple of forlorn old Stetson Mode Edge (Stetson's version of the Cav edge) bodies into quite presentable hats. My personal collection includes another Mode Edge Stetson with a tallish crown and a quite wide (right at three inches, or nearly so, if memory serves) brim. Plenty of material there. I wouldn't give up that one, but take it as evidence that such hats are out there.

 

[daizawaguy]

AMAZING! Art, I'll definitely be requesting this edge treatment on my next VS hat. That's about as close as you can get to the appearance of a felted edge these days and it looks great.

Daizawaguy, that hat is a lightweight/featherweight felt, correct?

I had`nt specified as I gave Art the order, but because I thought he only did the welting on a lightweight, I thought I had a lightweight. BUT, I was surprised! I got a dress weight with the welt! Absolutely wonderful - that makes all the difference...the overwelt fits the dress weight very well...

 

[4and1]

Suppose the custom hatter started with a raw body and felted the edge in his shop. I expect it would require additional equipment and, of course, more time and effort, but he would know the size and brim width and only have to felt the one. So, how much more work would it be and could his customers make it worth it for him?

 

[Mulceber]

I thought of that as well - but apart from needing more equipment you'd have to deal with the fact that the fur being felted onto the hat would most likely be the natural color of the fur, not the color of the hat. Also, I doubt any custom hatters really have felting equipment in their shops. -M

 

[carldelo]

How could you felt the edge on a completed rawbody? When it's cooked, it's cooked, and there's no going back.

That's what I thought as well. How about splitting the felt at the brim edge and inserting a narrow strip of felt to thicken it and sewing it closed. You'd need a really sharp, very thin knife....

 

[Lefty]

This is probably the most speculation-filled thread on the Lounge. The answers to most of these questions are in Brad's thread (part of the Start Here list of threads stickied at the top of the page), or readily available throughout the Lounge.

 

[carldelo]

This is probably the most speculation-filled thread on the Lounge. The answers to most of these questions are in Brad's thread (part of the Start Here list of threads stickied at the top of the page), or readily available throughout the Lounge.

My original question was about brim-binding vs. welting, which has been discussed and I got helpful responses. If it veers into a discussion of ways to recreate Cavanagh edges, I don't see that as a big problem --- this is a discussion forum after all and anyone is free to read it or not as they see fit.

PS I've read Brad's thread re: Cavanagh edges, and it is really interesting - a must-read, IMO.

 

[Lefty]

Your question was new, and I apologize for including you in my comment. The lack of understanding of the Cavanagh edge, when there's an amazingly comprehensive sticky on the topic, is just laziness.

 

[carldelo]

Your question was new, and I apologize for including you in my comment. The lack of understanding of the Cavanagh edge, when there's an amazingly comprehensive sticky on the topic, is just laziness.

Fair enough, no offense taken. Now I have to decide what color ribbon to bind the brim with, or find a teeny-tiny scalpel and binocular magnifiers to attempt the first cheese-in-the-crust version of the Cavanagh edge....

 

[4and1]

Sorry Lefty

 

[daizawaguy]

Forget the cavenach guys, look at this....

 

[daizawaguy]

 

[carldelo]

I'm resurrecting this thread to show the end result. I took Art's advice and had the rippled brim of my Chatham bound. The work was done by Worth & Worth last November. The hat has gotten a lot of wear since then, and the brim binding has cured the rippling problem. The binding was done by hand, and is therefore not 100% uniform, which doesn't bother me. I had the ribbon changed at the same time - both are slightly darker green than the sage color of the hat.

The result is really good, and saved the hat. If you were fussy, you would probably prefer to have the binding done by someone who could do it by machine. In my case, this is a casual hat, and I was able to deliver it to W&W in person, pick out the ribbon I liked and avoid shipping charges, so I'm quite satisfied with the result.

After, with new binding and ribbon:


Before (photos taken when new, before the rippling issue arose):