Was brown the old black?

[rjbaal]

Hi all i'm new member and a dedicated leather jacket addict! My question is would black or brown be a more "authentic" color for a 30's-40's period leather jacket?

Thanks in advance

Rjbaal

 

[Baron Kurtz]

civilian leather

I've seen probably equal amounts of the two, with perhaps a slight bias towards brown.

bk

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

For some reason I seem to come up with more brown 30's 40's jackets than black. It seems that most of the black ones are not really quite black, but very dark brown.

However, I don't claim to be an expert. I have only owned two jackets, one from the 30's and one from the 40's, both are brown, and of the tons I have seen on EBay most are brown to very dark brown. But then, I'm just biased towards brownlol

 

[feltfan]

Maybe people who bought black jackets
were rougher with their leather?

 

[Edward]

Wasn't there also a stigma attached to black leather at the time? I know the "Bad Boy" stereotyping of black leather was the reason that the Fonz was clad in a dark brown jacket (and even then, they only put him into leather at all into the second season after he was established as a "good guy"). That was the 70s, but it seems to me that those were mores that had carried over from the 50s and perhaps earlier?

In general, it does seem to me that people did wear much more brown in those days, with black less of the default option it tends to be now. We do have to bear in mind, though, that so many vintage jackets we see are surviving military wear which was by spec various shades of brown. Seems to me that perhaps this can skew the perception of colours available when it didn't necessarily reflect what was popular in civilian wear.

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

In general, it does seem to me that people did wear much more brown in those days, with black less of the default option it tends to be now. We do have to bear in mind, though, that so many vintage jackets we see are surviving military wear which was by spec various shades of brown. Seems to me that perhaps this can skew the perception of colours available when it didn't necessarily reflect what was popular in civilian wear.

I just had an interesting thought. Although I don't know when the stigma towards black started, Germany in the WWII era used black jackets in it's air forces, on its U-boats, and I have seen color pictures of German couriers on motorcycles wearing long black leather coats. Since all Germans were thought by the general population of this country to be Nazis, and since Nazi= Bad, maybe black = Bad?

 

[KObalto]

I think the stigma came from post WWII motorcycle gangs ala The Wild One.

 

[Edward]

I suspect both might have contributed to it. The 'greaser' style black leather jackets a la Brando already had a considerable stigma pre war so far as I understand it, something which continued right up til relatively recent times. I remember hearing tell of early punk guys being threatened with expulsion from the family home over Brando jackets. My own parents were less than thrilled when I opted for that style in the late 80s. Can't have been too dead against it as they did pay for the first one, but there were very severe words had about where and when I was to wear it.... lol

I recall reading a review of a book called The Black Leather Jacket that explored these sorts of perceptions throughout the 20th century; book sounded great, though I can't remember the name of the author.

My favourite ever comment on Brando jackets and associated clothing was in CryBaby, actually - the preacher referring to them as "clothes obviously designed by a homosexual." Cracks me up every time.

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

Here is something I found interesting, although it doesn't really solve the black jacket mystery.

I was looking at a book with tons of pictures called American Theatre 100 Years, and I noticed quite soon after WWII, leather jackets started showing up in plays, being used by characters playing tough (often bad guys). To me it doesn't seem like leather jackets of any color were equated with bad characters much before the war, as most of the leather wearing thugs show up after the war in plays and movies. This would seem to indicate that something that happened during the war slowly changed peoples perception of not only the black jacket, but the leather jacket itself?

Just a thought.

 

[Edward]

Well, the Gestapo were popularly depicted by Hollywood as black leather trenchcoat sporting monsters, that may be a part of it....

Weren't the original Hells Angels, or at least a core group of them, ex WW2 pilots who had difficulty settling back into civilian society? Might that have created a certain image for pilot's jacket,s if these guys were still wearing A2s or whatever?

Hmmn.

Here's a thought..... by any chance, did the stigmatisation of black leather jackets specifically (in so far as that distinction was made) come about as a result of the age of black and white cinematography? Any sufficiently dark leather jacket would look black in a B&W movie....

(I'm not articulating well right now, but you follow me?).

 

[Michael_T]

What if it's simpler. In both the 30's and 40's industry was hurting. Most hides aren't naturally black. So it's more cost effective to leave them brown then to go through the process of dyeing them black.

Just a thought.

Tschuess.

 

[Milu]

I recall reading a review of a book called The Black Leather Jacket that explored these sorts of perceptions throughout the 20th century; book sounded great, though I can't remember the name of the author.

The author was Mick Farren. There's also a documentary based on the book.

 

[Edward]

The author was Mick Farren. There's also a documentary based on the book.

Thanks, I must check that out.

 

[Bourbon Guy]

Here is something I found interesting, although it doesn't really solve the black jacket mystery.

I was looking at a book with tons of pictures called American Theatre 100 Years, and I noticed quite soon after WWII, leather jackets started showing up in plays, being used by characters playing tough (often bad guys). To me it doesn't seem like leather jackets of any color were equated with bad characters much before the war, as most of the leather wearing thugs show up after the war in plays and movies. This would seem to indicate that something that happened during the war slowly changed peoples perception of not only the black jacket, but the leather jacket itself?

Just a thought.

From growing up in the 50's, my recollection is that guys still wearing their military issue jackets years after the war ended were thought of by our parents as either lacking ambition, or exhibiting an unwillingness or inability to move on with their lives. Everyone else was wearing civvies, getting a job, getting married, having kids, buying a house under the GI bill, and trying to make up for lost years. They were not tooting around the countryside on motorcycles and going on beer runs. Some guys came out screwed-up. You left them alone, but kept your kids away from them.

As for those who were buying cheap surplus jackets to wear, they hadn't earned the right to wear them and were fakers, a less detestible version of the ones who would turn up occasionally wearing medals they hadn't earned. Everyone hated them.

 

[Edward]

From growing up in the 50's, my recollection is that guys still wearing their military issue jackets years after the war ended were thought of by our parents as either lacking ambition, or exhibiting an unwillingness or inability to move on with their lives. Everyone else was wearing civvies, getting a job, getting married, having kids, buying a house under the GI bill, and trying to make up for lost years. They were not tooting around the countryside on motorcycles and going on beer runs. Some guys came out screwed-up. You left them alone, but kept your kids away from them.

I often wonder how things might have turned out differently for a lot of folks had they had the medical knowledge back then that we do now. I'm sure a lot of those guys were suffering from some form of PTSD... such a shame that after they went to war believing that they were protecting their country and fighting for noble ideals against the evils of Hitler, they would be shunned by the very society they ought to protect. But still, better that than the poor souls who were shot as cowards in the trenches when their only crime was suffering from shellshock. Then there were the others who weren't shellshocked as such, but it came out in very different ways... much as what the Black and Tans got up to in Ireland would still rile me, I do believe that a lot of them deserved pity as they were probably suffering all sorts of psychological issues to the point that they were incapable of settling into civilian life. "War is all hell, boys" and all that....

As for those who were buying cheap surplus jackets to wear, they hadn't earned the right to wear them and were fakers, a less detestible version of the ones who would turn up occasionally wearing medals they hadn't earned. Everyone hated them.

Interesting, I didn't realise that extended to anyone in the jackets - as opposed to those who wore regalia and attempted to give the deliberate impression they had served. I don't really know what the contemporary reaction was to that sort of thing over here. I'm not sure it was that strong - I do somewhere have a pair of gauntlets and RAF goggles that my paternal grandfather bought as surplus in the immediate postwar period for use on a motorcycle he owned at the time, which was fairly common. Maybe those sorts of equipment basics just didn't have the cachet of an Irvin, though. I do know that for a very long time, army surplus clothing was looked down on as cheap workwear and something that people who couldn't afford "normal" clothing would wear. I remember this amusing my parents greatly when in the late 80s my little subculture first adopted army surplus clothing as a deliberate style choice.

 

[Bourbon Guy]

Edward-
Perhaps I didn't phrase it well. It was only the guys with the medals they didn't earn that were hated. As for PTSD, I expect they were. If we only knew then.... but we didn't. No one knew how to treat it, and we didn't have the medications then that we have now. So I think a lot of guys self-medicated with alcohol.

But that was then and this is now. Times change and so do people. Someone sensed a change in attitude that coincided with the war and I was just describing what I recall my parents' attitudes were a half a century ago. Don't get bummed about it. Wear your jacket.

 

[Edward]

Edward-
Perhaps I didn't phrase it well. It was only the guys with the medals they didn't earn that were hated.

Gotcha!

As for PTSD, I expect they were. If we only knew then.... but we didn't. No one knew how to treat it, and we didn't have the medications then that we have now. So I think a lot of guys self-medicated with alcohol.

I think you're probably right. It's a shame, though I don't mean to suggest we should judge those who viewed them with suspicion too harshly either - as you say, nobody knew what it was, or how to respond. I doubt most medical professionals even recognised it as a problem. Different times.

sensed a change in attitude that coincided with the war and I was just describing what I recall my parents' attitudes were a half a century ago. Don't get bummed about it. Wear your jacket.

No problem - I love reading people's stories of this sort of recollection from the period. I've long been interested in off-mainstream subcultures (punk, goth, now rockabilly etc), and I enjoy reading about the impact they had, the reactions they caused - good and bad - through their choice of clothing. It is interesting how these things have changed over time. Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[rjbaal]

Some thread. All I did was ask what was more popular brown or black

 

[kampkatz]

Dark green makes a nice looking leather jacket. General George Patton wanted green A2's for his tank crews, but the Army denied the request.

 

[Feraud]

Some thread. All I did was ask what was more popular brown or black

Consider this typical around here. At the Lounge you get an answer to the question you ask and those you have not yet thought of.