WARNING! Controversial poll ahead,...

[Maj.Nick Danger]

To celebrate the fact that I have had, "One too Many", I must now ask you all, dear readers, your opinion on the subject of the famous Scopes trial.

So where do you stand?

Creationism?
Or the theory of evolution?

I am well aware that this could become a very heated discussion, but I sincerely trust that we shall all conduct ourselves as true ladies and gentlemen.

 

[LolitaHaze]

Evolution.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Evolution, for Pete's sake. But hardly accidental.

.

 

[TommySalieri]

A combination of both.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Then cast your vote please,...

For Pete's sake.
I voted both. Life is just way too completely amazing in it's complexity to have accidentally just "happened" by mere chance. Even the most simple living organism is incredibly complex!
To have even a simple single celled animal, with all it's many components, simply "evolve" without a design, is tantamount to placing the parts of say,....a Swiss watch in a box. Then shaking those parts around for millions, even billions of years. Those component parts will never just work themselves together into a working watch. There must be some force in action to logically assemble the parts.

 

[Julius Xavier]

Creationism VS. Evolution

Good Question. I'm of the mind of alittle of both. I believe I was created by a higher power. Something smarter, wiser, and more powerful then I. And yet I can not turn a blind eye to evolution all around me. Some people are darker skinned to cope with climates, some have different eye shapes depending on what their exposure to the sun is.
As far as evolution goes in my book it happens where it's needed. According to Science we evolved from apes apprx. 60 million years ago. Well man's recorded history goes back almost 20,000 years with cave paintings and such which show man at that point and we have no tails. So stating you believe in evolution is saying that from 20,000 years ago to present day man hasn't evolved any farther. Granted we've gotten smarter and more ''productive" but that's not evolution. That's progression.

The easiest way for me to describe it is imagine standing on top of the highest point on earth and packing a small snow ball and rolling it down the mountain. It's going to grow and grow... until the climate changes it and melts it some... and it makes it way to a stream where it becomes water and part of the stream... flows down and changes again depending on the climate... it could freeze and become packaged ice that I put in a glass with my burbon and enjoy. Then I climb a mountain to the highest point on earth and make a snowball and....


Next week: "Egyptology". Starting with the excavation of Naukratis by Flinders Petrie in 1885. I will be in my office if anybody's got any questions for the next hour and a half.




-DocIndyJones

 

[Lauren]

I voted creation.

But I do know that species "evolve" into their habitats. I just don't believe species morph into different species.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Good Question. I'm of the mind of alittle of both. I believe I was created by a higher power. Something smarter, wiser, and more powerful then I. And yet I can not turn a blind eye to evolution all around me. Some people are darker skinned to cope with climates, some have different eye shapes depending on what their exposure to the sun is.
As far as evolution goes in my book it happens where it's needed. According to Science we evolved from apes apprx. 60 million years ago. Well man's recorded history goes back almost 20,000 years with cave paintings and such which show man at that point and we have no tails. So stating you believe in evolution is saying that from 20,000 years ago to present day man hasn't evolved any farther. Granted we've gotten smarter and more ''productive" but that's not evolution. That's progression.

The easiest way for me to describe it is imagine standing on top of the highest point on earth and packing a small snow ball and rolling it down the mountain. It's going to grow and grow... until the climate changes it and melts it some... and it makes it way to a stream where it becomes water and part of the stream... flows down and changes again depending on the climate... it could freeze and become packaged ice that I put in a glass with my burbon and enjoy. Then I climb a mountain to the highest point on earth and make a snowball and....


Next week: "Egyptology". Starting with the excavation of Naukratis by Flinders Petrie in 1885. I will be in my office if anybody's got any questions for the next hour and a half.




-DocIndyJones

Yes, some change, or "evolution" must occur it seems, within the confines of a given species. Species will adapt to their environment over time in order to survive. This is a proven fact, but is often misconstrued to support the Darwinian theory of evolution minus the Intelligent Creator factor.
To put it simply, a distinct species can never change it's genetic structure so as to become an entirely different species.

 

[Mike K.]

I was wondering when this would come up...

Let me start the discussion by first stating that I am a Christian and an evolutionary biologist. What? That can't be you say. Well, let me explain.

Evolution is a fact of life. I laugh everytime I hear somebody ask whether one "believes" in evolution. It is not a matter of faith, hence it is not a matter of belief. Asking whether one believes in evolution is like asking if you believe that grass is green. If anyone doubts whether evolution happens, just look around. Do you own a pet dog? Ever had a flu shot?

Here's how evolution works (for those less educated on the topic). And I don't mean to sound condescending to anyone. Let's say you get an infection. Each one of those little bacteria is different, just like you and me and all the FL members. One or two of those bacteria just so happen to have the gene (DNA) that makes them immune to the antibiotics that the doc just gave you. Well, the antibiotics kill off all of your infection...except those couple of resistant bacteria. Guess what? They then reproduce. Now you have an entire population of resistant bacteria. Natural selection has weeded out the bacteria and left only those able to survive the medicinal onslaught. They in turn have reproduced to pass along their DNA to offspring. They have evolved. That's it in a nutshell. That is evolution and one of the ways it works. Ever hear about resistant staph infections? How about all those nasties that penicillin used to kill back in the 1940s?

Okay, on to religion. While science can tell you how you got here, it cannot explain why. Therein lies the big difference between evolution and religion. Science cannot empirically test matters of faith. It is faith that we rely on to give us the "why" answers to life. It is for this reason, that Creationism cannot and should not be taught in a science classroom...it cannot be tested because it lies outside the realm of science. From the Christian perspective I think it should be taught, but at home or in church is the better place. Here's something interesting. According to my faith, the earth was created in 6 days (and on the 7th He rested). Something most people have forgotten, including myself until a recent bible study, the Book of Genesis (especially the first chapter) comes directly from the Hebrew faith and it is a POEM. Just read it, see the paragraph structure, hear the rhythm. That opening chapter is not meant to be taken literally...no seven 24hr periods. It's a poem; it's symbolic. Regardless, nobody knows how life began. Different religions each have different explanations, as does science. What we do know is that, regardless of how we got here, Earth and its inhabitants are not static - they are and have been constantly changing. God must have devised some earthly process (evolution) so life can keep up with the changes.

Evolution and science lie in two entirely different realms. One relies on empirical testing, the other on faith. Belief in one does NOT preclude acceptance of the other. The two are mutually exclusive, therefore, you can accept both. Take the time to actually read "Origin of Species" or some other evolutionary biology text. Perhaps you will find, as I did, that evolution is such an intricately magnificent process that it likely could not have arisen spontaneously in the primordial oceans; it is evidence of a higher Power. Also take time to read the Bible, Torah, or other book of faith. Regardless of whether you are a person of faith, there is much to be learned in these works.

The bottom line is this...evolution explains how I got here, the Bible explains why I am here. I believe in one God and I accept that evolution is a part of His creative handiwork.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I voted creation.

But I do know that species "evolve" into their habitats. I just don't believe species morph into different species.

Yes, my thoughts exactly.

 

[TommySalieri]

Precisely. People treat and see evolution as if it were dogma. Proven fact, in other words. But to this very day, it only remains theory and we have yet to discover the "missing link".

This brings to mind the recent discovery of a supposed extinct species of rat or squirrel that was found to not be so be "extinct", after all. The rodent hasn't "evolved", even though the bones that were found prior to it's rediscovery were dated to be millions of years old. Perhaps I am wrong on this subject and, as always, I am always willing to keep an open mind.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Let me start the discussion by first stating that I am a Christian and an evolutionary biologist. What? That can't be you say. Well, let me explain.

Evolution is a fact of life. I laugh everytime I hear somebody ask whether one "believes" in evolution. It is not a matter of faith, hence it is not a matter of belief. Asking whether one believes in evolution is like asking if you believe that grass is green. If anyone doubts whether evolution happens, just look around. Do you own a pet dog? Ever had a flu shot?

Here's how evolution works (for those less educated on the topic). And I don't mean to sound condescending to anyone. Let's say you get an infection. Each one of those little bacteria is different, just like you and me and all the FL members. One or two of those bacteria just so happen to have the gene (DNA) that makes them immune to the antibiotics that the doc just gave you. Well, the antibiotics kill off all of your infection...except those couple of resistant bacteria. Guess what? They then reproduce. Now you have an entire population of resistant bacteria. Natural selection has weeded out the bacteria and left only those able to survive the medicinal onslaught. They in turn have reproduced to pass along their DNA to offspring. They have evolved. That's it in a nutshell. That is evolution and one of the ways it works. Ever hear about resistant staph infections? How about all those nasties that penicillin used to kill back in the 1940s?

Okay, on to religion. While science can tell you how you got here, it cannot explain why. Therein lies the big difference between evolution and religion. Science cannot empirically test matters of faith. It is faith that we rely on to give us the "why" answers to life. It is for this reason, that Creationism cannot and should not be taught in a science classroom...it cannot be tested because it lies outside the realm of science. From the Christian perspective I think it should be taught, but at home or in church is the better place. Here's something interesting. According to my faith, the earth was created in 6 days (and on the 7th He rested). Something most people have forgotten, including myself until a recent bible study, the Book of Genesis (especially the first chapter) comes directly from the Hebrew faith and it is a POEM. Just read it, see the paragraph structure, hear the rhythm. That opening chapter is not meant to be taken literally...no seven 24hr periods. It's a poem; it's symbolic. Regardless, nobody knows how life began. Different religions each have different explanations, as does science. What we do know is that, regardless of how we got here, Earth and its inhabitants are not static - they are and have been constantly changing. God must have devised some earthly process (evolution) so life can keep up with the changes.

Evolution and science lie in two entirely different realms. One relies on empirical testing, the other on faith. Belief in one does NOT preclude acceptance of the other. The two are mutually exclusive, therefore, you can accept both. Take the time to actually read "Origin of Species" or some other evolutionary biology text. Perhaps you will find, as I did, that evolution is such an intricately magnificent process that it likely could not have arisen spontaneously in the primordial oceans; it is evidence of a higher Power. Also take time to read the Bible, Torah, or other book of faith. Regardless of whether you are a person of faith, there is much to be learned in these works.

The bottom line is this...evolution explains how I got here, the Bible explains why I am here. I believe in one God and I accept that evolution is a part of His creative handiwork.

I agree. But was Darwin's original work based on the supposition of no Creator, or did he indeed give credit where credit is due, so to speak?

 

[magneto]

(Personally, I feel some forget that evolution is a *theory* (and one whose shortcomings are documented by ones more capable than I), not a credo).
Howdy Major Danger....
I resisted the urge to ask (harkening back to the infamous Huxley/Wilburforce debate) whether your new avatar represented a revered ancestor

 

[Mike K.]

1. Marc - evolution is a process that actually does occur through "accidents", that's part of natural selection.
2. DocIndyJone - the human lineage diverged from the modern apes approximately 3.5 million years ago (60 mil is end of dinosaurs).
3. Lauren - species don't exactly morph into a new species. Natural selection acts on individuals, not a species. However, over time one species can fade out but due to the minute changes over time, new species will "appear." This is why you won't find the proverbial missing link.
4. Maj. Nick - a species can never change its own DNA to become a new species, but the genetics do change and new organisms arise. If genetics didn't change, all our children would be exactly like the parents. If new organisms are so genetically dissimilar to the orginal parent species that they cannot interbreed with them (but can among themselves), then you have a new species. What's left out is what you touched on eloquently...the Creator factor. Species cannot change their own DNA, but the process of natural selection could very well be driven by a Divine hand.

 

[pablocham]

Evolution. I don't know what "both" means in the context of the development of life. If there is a God who created this universe, then he ipso facto created evolution. But, you can't have a literal creation as described in Genesis 1 and 2 and also have evolution. Personally I can't really conceive of a God who is so petty that he must constantly come to earth to fiddle and tinker with his creation as often as the fossil record would require.

That said, I can also imagine that perhaps evolution is, as many have alleged, a trick of old scratch, the arch-fiend, the arch-deciever, the devil or Satan, as he is known to most (though I will reserve the possibility that the trick of evolution was executed not by the dark power himself, but by some lesser minion or minions yet unnamed, acting alone or in concert; perhaps Beelzebub, Moloch, or Baal?). Unfortunately that line of thought also indicts reason, because evolution is the product of the scientific method, which is the most exacting extraction and distilation of human reason that can be devised by human reason. And moreover, such a result is reprehensible seeing that reason is itself a gift to man and a glorification of God.

If we cannot trust basic human reason, then we can trust none of its products, i.e. the scientific method and even our basic unscientific perceptions of objective reality. If we cannot trust our own most basic perceptions, then our very existence on earth, riddled as it would be with uncertainty and terror, would be absurd. Taking as a given that God is good and seeing that only a cruel and mischievous god (which God most certainly is not) would create an existence so absurd that human reason itself could not be trusted, it follows that our existence is not absurd. Therefore, our perceptions and our inborn ability to reason can be relied upon, at least as far as they go, and what is more, the products of those perceptions can be relied upon when they are consistent with the principles of logic and reason. From this point it is easy to see that if God is good, then evolution must be true.

 

[Mike K.]

Everybody is missing some important points

Theory is not a gray area of science, not a hypothesis, not a supposition. A theory is a substantial body of knowledge with no better explanation.

Darwin was a deeply religious man and knew exactly what his book would do. Did you all know that Darwin was actually in training for the ministry. One of the advocations of the clergy at the time was natural history, hence Darwin's pursuits that led to his novel ideas.

Here's one to ponder...
As I stated in an earlier post, science works NOT by proving anything but by DISPROVING all alternative explanations. Ever since Darwin published "Origin of Species" in 1859, us biologists have been actually working diligently to disprove his ideas. Guess what? In all this time, we haven't discovered any testable alternative explanations! Such a vast body of knowledge, without alternative explanation, amounts to a THEORY.

 

[Lady Day]

1. Marc - evolution is a process that actually does occur through "accidents", that's part of natural selection.
2. DocIndyJone - the human lineage diverged from the modern apes approximately 3.5 million years ago (60 mil is end of dinosaurs).
3. Lauren - species don't exactly morph into a new species. Natural selection acts on individuals, not a species. However, over time one species can fade out but due to the minute changes over time, new species will "appear." This is why you won't find the proverbial missing link.
4. Maj. Nick - a species can never change its own DNA to become a new species, but the genetics do change and new organisms arise. If genetics didn't change, all our children would be exactly like the parents. If new organisms are so genetically dissimilar to the orginal parent species that they cannot interbreed with them (but can among themselves), then you have a new species. What's left out is what you touched on eloquently...the Creator factor. Species cannot change their own DNA, but the process of natural selection could very well be driven by a Divine hand.

Theory is not a gray area of science, not a hypothesis, not a supposition. A theory is a substantial body of knowledge with no better explanation.

Darwin was a deeply religious man and knew exactly what his book would do. Did you all know that Darwin was actually in training for the ministry. One of the advocations of the clergy at the time was natural history, hence Darwin's pursuits that led to his novel ideas.

Here's one to ponder...
As I stated in an earlier post, science works NOT by proving anything but by DISPROVING all alternative explanations. Ever since Darwin published "Origin of Species" in 1859, us biologists have been actually working diligently to disprove his ideas. Guess what? In all this time, we haven't discovered any testable alternative explanations! Such a vast body of knowledge, without alternative explanation, amounts to a THEORY.

*sigh* Thak you for explaining what I would never be able to, form the words in such a concise and educated way, and saying it better than I could. *sigh*

LD

 

[Briscoeteque]

There is nothing accidental about evolution, and I don't understand why people keep demanding that there is. Mutations happen in genes all of the time. You have mutated quite a bit, and a few base pairs in your genes are aready different then a few others. Most of the time these mutations are useless and don't really change a thing. Some have big changes. Sometimes these changes really help a species better adapt to an enviroment. The animals that are better suited to an enviroment tend to survive more to pass on their genes. What's accidental about that? It's something that's purpetually happening, and it's something that works remarkably well. Calling it accidental is like saying it's all random. There's a reason why glitches happen when DNA gets replicated, there's a reason why these changes determine traits, and there's a reason certain traits are favored in different enviroments. Sure, we all could have been created. But every one of our senses could constantly be decieved. Science deals with natural phenomonon by observing nature and drawing conclusions bases on that.

Also, there is no real difference between macro and micro evolution. It's just scale. A 'species' is a label slapped on to animals to group them into a system. An fish didn't wake up and become a frog. A fish was concieved once that had genes that just happened to lay the blueprints for possible lungs, and it just so happens that these genes, being favored over time, became prevelent enough to fill an available niche for survival. Evolution is this one theory that makes people so uncomfortable, so when they don't know enough about it, they dismiss it. You can believe in God, and you can believe in Creationism, but evolution is a theory that best explains a natural phenomon. There could be a divine hand and all that, but there is no scientific way to determine that. Ever. It's simply not what science is, and the fact that Intelligent Design should be taught in a science class is silly. It may be true, yes, but it is NOT science and barring some fundemental change in nature, it will never be.

Why can't I just not lose stuff all of the time instead of studying all of this?

 

[Benny Holiday]

Which faith do you follow?

That's the essential question the good Major is asking. Evolution is as much a matter of faith as Creation. Science is defined as the gathering of information from the obervation, study, and testing of evidence. Without a time machine, one can't study the origins of life scientifically.

Evolution contradicts science. Creationism claims that God created time and matter. Evolution claims that nothing created a singularity from nothing and it expanded, which violates the scientific principle of causality, which states that every action must have a cause.

For evolution to be scientifically sound, one kind of organism must mutate into another. Yet there are no links in the fossil record to prove that this has ever happened, and the study of genetics reveals that no new information is ever gained from genetic mutation; in fact, information is lost. Organisms can naturally select and filter out traits (for instance, dogs that are introduced to a colder climate will eventually have only longer hair to keep warm because the ones with the dominant genes for shorter hair will die off), but once those short hair genes are gone, they're lost. No new information has been added to the dogs's genetic code.

There is no known natural process for generating new, more complex traits. For a reptile to become a bird, the reptile would, along with many other improbably changes, have to acquire new genes to create the proteins necessary to produce feathers. The chance of any natural process creating a new gene code for a protein fundamentally different to those already present in the reptile is simply zero.

Everyone's entitled to believe what they will, but it is important to know why you believe what you do, and to understand that evolution is very mucha matter of faith rather than valid science.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

(Personally, I feel some forget that evolution is a *theory* (and one whose shortcomings are documented by ones more capable than I), not a credo).
Howdy Major Danger....
I resisted the urge to ask (harkening back to the infamous Huxley/Wilburforce debate) whether your new avatar represented a revered ancestor

Well Ms. Magneto, my avatar is actually how I look after having had "one too many" as they say, and thank you for asking. lol