War Fetishism

[Chas]

Hello, everyone. I hope you are having a good holiday season.

I understand and appreciate the concern of the bartenders in keeping political discussion out of the lounge, and I welcome their feedback and moderation. Bear with me, if you please. I will do my part to keep the discussion civil and on point.

Last night, I saw a rather good doco on the death of Michael Wittman, the SS Panzer tanker. I know I shouldn't be surprised at this, but apparently his grave is a shrine to neo NAZIs and others who hero-worship him.

The SS were not soldiers, IMHO, they were criminals in uniform. They committed countless atrocities in Russia and the occupied countries, murdered Canadian and British POW's in Normandy and Americans in Malmedy.

My first question is this:

Why the mystique? Am I the only person who regards these fanatical sociopaths as such? Why are the German military services of WWII the subjects of admiration and hero worship? Clearly, they were fighting in the worst cause than men have ever fought for.

Do the Khmer Rouge, Hutu Militia and the various paramilitaries from different former Yugoslavian countries have tribute websites? Is there going to be a hot collectors market for the memorobilia of those events? Reproduction Hutu Militia machetes, perhaps?

I notice that the SS and the NAZIs have many worshippers in the US, Britain and Canada, as well as other countries. The US and Canada, I can fully understand. We are blissfuly ignorant of the atrocities, having been protected by huge oceans on either side. We can afford the detatchement of not having any thing happen here like what happened at Oradour-Sur-Glane.

A couple of the soldiers who fought in the battle were interviewed, and one of them remarked that "some people think he was a hero. He wasn't. He was a criminal. Anyone who jumps into a tank and invades other people's countries to kill them is a criminal."

I wanted to solicit opinions as to why the NAZIs and SS have such appeal and mystique. I am trying to understand it. I also feel the need to carry the torch for my father's generation, men who fought the NAZIs and who knew what they were about. I may be jousting windmills here, but I feel the need to call them on it (NAZI fetishists).

 

[MadelienneBlack]

While I'll agree it's so strange that someone would "worship" such an evil person as Hitler and his cronies, I think there's a bit more too it than that.

If you look at it from a historical standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with Nazi reenactors. I might even say I encourage them. You shouldn't ignore a side of history simply because it's attrocious and/or you disagree. I think some people also do it as a way to honor their ancestors. For example, just because the South lost the American Civil War doesn't mean you don't still have Reb reenactors. I don't believe anyone on this forum would tell you what the Nazi's did was right, but that doesn't mean when discussing WWII, the other side's views should be completely disregarded simply because they commited horrible acts and in the end lost the war.

I do see your point though. Glorifying gruesome acts is shameful. I think perhaps some weak minded folks fall for it because it's gained a sort of ultimate-bad-guy status. Pardon my language, but they see being a follower of the Nazi ideals as being "bad-ass" and tough. It's not. The other possibility, and in all likelihood the most probable reason, is because there are sad, close-minded, predjudice, biggotous human beings who truly believe that any one of us is better than the next man or woman.

If you've never seen it, I suggest watching the film American History X. It deals with this topic exactly.

 

[Sefton]

I believe that you have answered your own question:


I notice that the SS and the NAZIs have many worshippers in the US, Britain and Canada, as well as other countries. The US and Canada, I can fully understand. We are blissfuly ignorant of the atrocities, having been protected by huge oceans on either side. We can afford the detatchement of not having any thing happen here like what happened at Oradour-Sur-Glane.


The Nazi architects were extremely good at fashioning an image of themselves as iconic and archetypical as any the world has known. Masterful usage of uniforms, parades, rallies and music. It was, along with the Soviet Union the first fruit born of the 20th Centuries mass media. As time passes it is easy to romaticize the past...even when it should still horrify us. Also I have to respectfully disagree with the idea that it is appropriate to reenact as a Nazi (or any other side for that matter). It is, in my opinion, the ultimate in tastelessness. The intentions of the reenactors may be good, but the only people who have the right to wear the uniforms and march around are those who did so in the REAL WWII. I can't imagine that there are any of them that want to do that or many people in formerly occupied countries that would enjoy seeing reenactors parading around in SS uniforms.

I don't think that there is anyone here that can be described as worshippers of the Nazis or any of the the other groups that you mentioned and I'm not saying that you implied that either. I have seen the type that you describe and I can understand why you'd wonder about their beliefs.
Sefton

 

[Chas]

If you look at it from a historical standpoint, I don't see anything wrong with Nazi reenactors. I might even say I encourage them. You shouldn't ignore a side of history simply because it's attrocious and/or you disagree. I think some people also do it as a way to honor their ancestors. For example, just because the South lost the American Civil War doesn't mean you don't still have Reb reenactors. I don't believe anyone on this forum would tell you what the Nazi's did was right, but that doesn't mean when discussing WWII, the other side's views should be completely disregarded simply because they commited horrible acts and in the end lost the war.

I do see your point though. Glorifying gruesome acts is shameful. I think perhaps some weak minded folks fall for it because it's gained a sort of ultimate-bad-guy status. Pardon my language, but they see being a follower of the Nazi ideals as being "bad-ass" and tough. It's not. The other possibility, and in all likelihood the most probable reason, is because there are sad, close-minded, predjudice, biggotous human beings who truly believe that any one of us is better than the next man or woman.

If you've never seen it, I suggest watching the film American History X. It deals with this topic exactly.

Thanks for the reply - I have seen American History X, however I see it more as an explanatory exercise in why far-right ideology works in today's world, in any number of countries. The part of the film that struck me the most was that scene where Ed Norton's character is exhorting his followers to act, while talking about how "their neighborhood was being taken over". Far-right ideology is even on the rise in Russia, and Hitler has admirers there, which I find bizarre.

As far as reenacting goes, I personally consider it a form of war fetishism, albeit a far more benign form. That is just my personal opinion; not meant to slander or insult reenactors, and there are many ways to celebrate the lives of our ancestors. My father was a WW2 veteran, too. He was also a wonderful gardener. So I would be better off building a greenhouse and growing tomatoes, rather than spending a lot of $$ on a uniform and playing at war. I just understand war to be hideous, wasteful and insane. Nothing to be celebrated. And I find SS reenactors to be the worst sort of NAZI fetishists.

 

[LordBest]

The SS were not soldiers, IMHO, they were criminals in uniform. They committed countless atrocities in Russia and the occupied countries, murdered Canadian and British POW's in Normandy and Americans in Malmedy.

This is not quite right. The Wehrmacht as a whole is regarded as the greatest post-gunpowder fighting force the world has ever seen (read the relevent works by William S Lind, Martin Creveld and Bruce Gudmundsson amongst others), and some of the Waffen SS units were the best of the best. Putting aside morality, they performed extremely well in combat, not just when it came to slaughtering the defenseless. The best of the best always have a mystique about them, however base they may be/have been.

I am not a SS reenactor (nor any kind of WWII reenactor) but the few I know I would not decribe as war fetishists, and certainly not Nazi fetishists. They reenact that period of history because it interests them, not because they have some kind of unhealthy fetish about WWII or the SS. I am not saying there are not SS reenactors out there who are fetishists, but one can not generalise about such a diverse group.

 

[Chas]

This is not quite right. The Wehrmacht as a whole is regarded as the greatest post-gunpowder fighting force the world has ever seen (read the relevent works by William S Lind, Martin Creveld and Bruce Gudmundsson amongst others), and some of the Waffen SS units were the best of the best. Putting aside morality, they performed extremely well in combat, not just when it came to slaughtering the defenseless. The best of the best always have a mystique about them, however base they may be/have been.

I am not a SS reenactor (nor any kind of WWII reenactor) but the few I know I would not decribe as war fetishists, and certainly not Nazi fetishists. They reenact that period of history because it interests them, not because they have some kind of unhealthy fetish about WWII or the SS. I am not saying there are not SS reenactors out there who are fetishists, but one can not generalise about such a diverse group.

B.S., lordbest.

I am not saying that reenactors are bad people. I stand by the war fetishist statement, however. It's an opinion, which is not "wrong" per se. 1+1=3 is wrong. Good people they may be, but I think that their money and time that they claim to be honoring their ancestors would be better spent in helping their communities and making the world a better place.

The Wehrmacht helped put Hitler in power, and were full partners in the Holocaust and the crimes that were committed as part of Hitler's war against "the Freemasonry of world Jewry and Bolshevism". If they had been the "greatest military force" in history, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We, meaning the allies, were the greatest. Tactical excellence in the field doesn't translate to greatness if the cause is unjust or perverse. The "greatest" don't fight for odious causes like the NAZIs. I would put any Allied Airborne Div, The USMC, the British Tommy, or the Red Army Guards Div's against the SS any day. Justice, freedom and the desire to live in a world free of maniacs is stronger, was stronger and will remain stronger than hate any time you like.

 

[LordBest]

A fine sentiment but not borne out by the facts. Having moral superiority does not translate into victory, history is full of courageous peoples crushed underfoot. The Wehrmacht fought smarter and harder then the Allies, at least according to those eminent military minds I quoted in my previous post. It is worth remembering it took the combined might of all the Allies to take down Nazi Germany, it took many years to do it and there were several points where the Germans could have swung things their way. Thank God the forces of good triumped in the end, but we were the underdog for much of the war.
Not to be rude, but who are you to tell people how to spend their spare time? WWII reenactment harms no one, whether people choose to spend money on it or not is their business, there is no moral element here.

B.S., lordbest.

I am not saying that reenactors are bad people. I stand by the war fetishist statement, however. It's an opinion, which is not "wrong" per se. 1+1=3 is wrong. Good people they may be, but I think that their money and time that they claim to be honoring their ancestors would be better spent in helping their communities and making the world a better place.

The Wehrmacht helped put Hitler in power, and were full partners in the Holocaust and the crimes that were committed as part of Hitler's war against "the Freemasonry of world Jewry and Bolshevism". If they had been the "greatest military force" in history, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We, meaning the allies, were the greatest. Tactical excellence in the field doesn't translate to greatness if the cause is unjust or perverse. The "greatest" don't fight for odious causes like the NAZIs. I would put any Allied Airborne Div, The USMC, the British Tommy, or the Red Army Guards Div's against the SS any day. Justice, freedom and the desire to live in a world free of maniacs is stronger, was stronger and will remain stronger than hate any time you like.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Oh boy Chas, you've really started something here.
May I take the opportunity to correct afew errors ?

Why the mystique? Am I the only person who regards these fanatical sociopaths as such? Why are the German military services of WWII the subjects of admiration and hero worship? Propaganda. They had nice shiny uniforms and looked way better than a few africans doped out of their brains in torn civillian clothes wandering about not knowing what they were doing. Clearly, they were fighting in the worst cause than men have ever fought for. No better nor worse a cause than any others.



I notice that the SS and the NAZIs have many worshippers in the US, Britain and Canada, as well as other countries. Fact - there are many 'worshippers' in places like France and Poland and other eastern states who ought to know better having had these atrocities on their own soil The US and Canada, I can fully understand. We are blissfuly ignorant of the atrocities, having been protected by huge oceans on either side. There were plenty of your servicemen who did see these things. We can afford the detatchement of not having any thing happen here like what happened at Oradour-Sur-Glane.Nor did it happen in the UK but we have all been exposed to the film footage so don't be saying 'blissfully unaware'.

A couple of the soldiers who fought in the battle were interviewed, and one of them remarked that "some people think he was a hero. He wasn't. He was a criminal. Anyone who jumps into a tank and invades other people's countries to kill them is a criminal." Oh, you mean like what we are doing in Iraq & Afghanistan ? Invading foreign, sovreign territiories to bring about regime changes of people we don't like? PLEASE.

I wanted to solicit opinions as to why the NAZIs and SS have such appeal and mystique. I am trying to understand it. I also feel the need to carry the torch for my father's generation, men who fought the NAZIs and who knew what they were about. I may be jousting windmills here, but I feel the need to call them on it (NAZI fetishists).

The SS were very highly trained and very highly motivated (and VERY misguided). Some people are able to disassociate the fighting from the atrocities and it works for them (NOT for me).

It's a bit like some Americans worshipping their aircrews who fire-bombed Tokoyo and carpet bombed civillians all over Europe Including my grandfather who was bombed by the USAAF several times as a British soldier and who lost friends in those bombing). Or their armed forces who committed thousands of rapes all over France following the Invasion. Or who profiteered by selling items meant for the frontline to civillians on the black market.

This is a pointless post looking to bait people into conflict. NOT what this forum is about. There are many WW2 forums including ones for WW2 German re-enactors so go ask them and leave us alone. On this forum we are not here to judge.

Dave

 

[PADDY]

We have been here before.

And from past experience of many years know that this topic always ends in tears and isn't FL appropriate. (See the rules on the top of the main page).

Even the 'title' is rather emotive and devisive and all the ingredients are there for an eventual bun fight - trust me on this!

Thanks for the interesting points made, but sadly these things always end in a train crash, and we are not here to give any voice to such organisations (and other folk will reenact 'all' those other organisations, and more, that are mentioned) hence the closure now.