vintage vs. custom

[steppenwolph]

After looking through many pages of posts in this forum, I've found a concept that has me confused. Being very new to all this, I'm hoping some of the more experienced folks out there can enlighten me. The thing is this: more than a few times the comment has been stated, "I'd rather own a vintage than a new custon hat." Is this a widely held view? If so, are there objective qualitites that older felt has and newer felt does not? I'm assuming that a custom hat maker could replicate any style one wished, so the difference must be in the materials used that cannot be had anymore? What off the rack hat of yesteryear would be better than a quality custom of today? Thanks for helping me to understand all this.

 

[HungaryTom]

I rather own quality

I think the term vintage means just that a certain thing is plain old. Quality has varied then as it does now. I prefer for the latter reason custom hats by quality focusers. Each item has a shelf life - vintage things have already a lot from that behind them.

This is just a personal viewpoint - I have simply aversions against putting on headgear that has been worn by others before me. You can not put a fedora in a washing machine.

 

[anon`]

I'd rather have a good-looking and well-functioning lid, regardless of age.

If I come across a vintage hat that fits and looks good, I buy it (usually!).
When I have enough money to order a custom hat and the mood strikes me... I do that, too.

 

[univibe88]

I had the same question when I was new here. Here is a thread I started that may answer some questions (or raise more)

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=28651

 

[duggap]

Let me start by saying I am a big fan of the custom hats, particularly when they are made from beaver. I have six beaver felts from Art Fawcett and I have two vintage that I bought from Johnnyphi. The vintage hats were made by Adam so they really don't compare with a custom beaver, but there is a lot to be said for the old vintage hats. And I don't think a custom hatter can make anything you want as he must first have the blocks for the hat. And the other thing about the custom hat is that they are new and you are the only one who has wore it.

 

[kaosharper1]

I like to support good craftsmen. I bid on a Johnny Phi hat: an Adam Majestic that Jimmy the Lid won. Once the bidding got up to $250 I thought that I could get a beaver Art Fawcett for $305, so why bother. Art is now reproducing that same hat for me in beaver rather than rabbit. With shipping it won't cost me much more, so I went with that.

I did just get a very nice vintage near mint Borsalino and for $100 it was a steal, but that's hard to find.

 

[Lefty]

Vintage can offer a number of attributes that Art and other custom makers can't replicate. Art has freely admitted that he can't duplicate the mercury finished hats (the process no longer exists for health and environmental reasons), and no one has produced a self-felted (Cavanagh) edge for about 40 years (read Brad Bowers' excellent sticky thread on the subject). I completely disagree with kabuto that vintage hats that aren't deadstock are going to be a mess that require a lot of work. There are thousands of them on ebay right now that are in great shape. Learning about the vintage brands, models, and characteristics can help you get a hat that cannot be made today, in a quality that would run around $1000 today - but with that added value of history.

Custom hats, such as those from Art, are fantastic for other reasons. Art makes a 100% beaver hat - the composition of a hat that's as high quality as they come. His hats far exceed the quality of many, many vintage hats, including, in my opinion, every hat ever made by some companies. A hat by Art is also made exactly to your size and specifications of felt color, crown height, brim width, ribbon color, design, and width, liner color, initials in the sweat, etc. It's not just "a" perfect hat, it's "your" perfect hat.

 

[retro50]

I really really like my vintage 50's Whippet. But, I really really like my VS custom MORE! No comparison.

 

[Guttersnipe]

I'd like to echo Lefty's statment...

I'd also like to add that the "bargain" brands of yesteryear are often better quality then many modern "top-shelf" brands.

The quality of workmanship and materials on vintage "cheap" hats like Stephen E. Stetsons and Adams I've owned or examined is definitely better then modern 4X Stetsons I own.

When it comes to artisan built custom hats, depending on the maker, the quality of workmanship is definitely there, but the the felt just isn't the same (IMHO).

 

[tortswon]

It depends...

I own one hat made by Art, an Akubra, and about a dozen vintage hats, so my knowledge is limited. Since I don't let a lack of knowledge interfere with stating my opinion, I would say that we are dealing with apples and oranges. An analogy can be drawn to vintage and modern cars. You would not expect the same refinements in a vintage Mercedes Benz as you would in a new Mercedes. The wood and leather in an old Mercedes are different than in a new one. The wood and leather in an old Mercedes may be incredibly luxurious, if the car were kept well or well restored. The wood and leather in a new Mercedes would be pristine because it is new. You cannot say whether the wood and leather in an old Mercedes is better or worse than in a new Mercedes until you know what the condition of the old Mercedes wood and leather is.

Assuming that the wood and leather in the old Mercedes is pristine (NOS), then you still don't have an answer to the question of which is better, the old Mercedes or the new. That is a matter of taste. There may be some objective standards but your preference is personal. Same with old and new hats. There are some vintage hats that are pristine and some that are beaters.

The new Mercedes is likely to have better performance and handling since science moves forward. The old Mercedes will have a "classic" look. How much each of those are worth is a matter of personal opinion. While a fine custom hatter can reproduce the look of a hat, he cannot reproduce the patina of age. Like wood, felt changes over time, even if the hat has been in storage for years. The old Mercedes has something the new one does not have, age. For some of us, owning an old hat means more than having a head covering. I think about the times the hat has gone through, the history that has been experienced by the owners, who owned it before me, etc., etc., etc.

My old hats are wonderful. They have seen World War II, Korea, Vietnam. man setting foot on the moon and the turning of the millennium. Two of them were owned by a nationally ranked rifle shooting champion, one came from the estate of an industrialist.

With my hat from Art, I write the history. It is so well made that when I pass it on to the next generation, I hope they will say, "This was my uncle's hat. Let me tell you about some of the things we did together." I don't think they will feel the same way about my vintage hats because they just "passed through" me. My Art hat has my initials in it and always will unless someone changes the sweat band.

So to address the question directly, "Which do you prefer, vintage or custom?," I can say firmly and without equivocation, "Yes."

 

[retro50]

Perhaps we could have a word from an expert, specifically Art, on the differences in vintage v. modern felts. It is an area I find a little confusing and need expert enlightenment on. Many thanks in advance, Art.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I hold the belief that the right custom hat is just as good as the right vintage hat. If I found myself torn between two such hats, in my size, price would be the deciding factor. Like HungaryTom said, over $250, you might as well go for one of Arts or Oak's or Moore's. You know you'll get top quality. With vintage, it can be more of a gamble, unless you really know your vintage hats, ages, and felts.

Exceptions to my personal rules would be; a mercury felt vintage (in my size and to my liking) or a cavanaugh edged open crown schoble supreme (my size and to my liking) might actually trump an Art Fawcett.

In the end, I suppose, the hat I'd rather have is the hat I liked the most, vintage or otherwise.

 

[Art Fawcett]

uggg, against my better judgement Retro50, I'll jump in.

One thing to remember gents, this is ALL opinion

Above, there is a question about which brand from the past would trump most/all/some customs today..Borsalino (1900-1950s). I wore one for years and was/is my quality target. That said, the finish of my felts gives a better feel than most Borso production hats simply because they are beaver and production hats are generally not.

Tortswon has about as good an answer or retort as can be given. To my mind it's a bit unfair to compare unless you compare production hats against like and customs against like. To say that vintage production hats are better than todays customs is so broad as to show one's prejudice in pretty clear light. To match "perfect" needs to have "perfect" defined first, then compare. I've learned that each of us has our own definition of "perfect" so I sometimes feel like a cat herder.

OK, today's production vs yesterday's production? hands down Vintage. There are a number of reasons but I believe they mostly relate to work/cost environment and material availability. When labor costs are low, more time can be spent per hat, better skill developed over a broader spectrum of craftsmen, more fine detail. We all know about the mercury carroting issue and I believe it has something to do with the quality, but not as much as has been argued. Also, the choices of ribbons and ribbon makers were unlimited by comparison.

As for customs VS customs..I've seen customs from 50 yrs ago that aren't any more impressive than production hats and same goes for today. The guys that have impressed me the most have been from the Western hatting side. I've seen some incredible artistry by guys who aren't well known that I KNOW would not have been done 50 yrs ago . As far as I can tell it's all about the artist and their individual skills. I would never want to lump all "custom" hatters together any more than I would lump ALL vintage production together as it's just plain different.

 

[steppenwolph]

I had the same question when I was new here. Here is a thread I started that may answer some questions (or raise more)

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=28651

Thanks for the link! A lot of good info there.

 

[steppenwolph]

Thanks to everyone who jumped in with their thoughts. I really appreciate reading all the diversity of views. Looks like I will just have to find a nice vintage lid and have Art create a new custom one just for me, so I can come to my own conclusions about their differences. It has been great reading about all the different qualities that go into what makes a hat special, from the felt to its history to its future. Thanks again for the enlightenment.

 

[Dewhurst]

I don't discriminate against off the shelf moderns, customs, or vintage (old) fedoras.

I have some vintage hats that are great, one custom that is great, and some off the shelf fedoras that are great. If a fedora is comfortable, long lasting, and looks and feels good, then I like it regardless of vintage or whether it was a custom job.

I just love wearing hats, and I refuse to limit my choices.

 

[retro50]

Thank you Art for your opinions. Enlightening.

 

[tortswon]

Tortswon has about as good an answer or retort as can be given.

As a lawyer, this proves, beyond reasonable doubt, that for every Tort, there's a retort. Thanks for the input, Art. Best, Sam

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

I'm one of the guys who says I'd rather own vintage, but my reasoning may not have been clear to you.

It's true that some vintage hats trump even well made modern customs in the quality-of-felt department but it's a real crap shoot if you get one of those in the kind of shape - and fit - that most people would be willing to wear. I now own around 60 vintage hats - and I have handled new custom hats that match up to most of my oldies. Only a very few of mine may qualify as "better" in some way. Also, my modern production hats feel like cardboard boxes compared to the quality of the customs I've seen.

So, for me it's not necessarily about quality. It's about the vibe. And it's about my cheapness. I just like the sport of getting crazy good deals on old hats and I really like the sense of 'connection' to the golden era that these relics give me.

When I express these preferences I just want you to know that I'm not poo-pooing customs or the customers who choose them. Hats by Art Fawcett and Major Moore, to name a couple of our resident favorites, are tremendous value.

 

[Lefty]

and?

The competition was primarily in the place that it usually is - the low-cost to middle of the road items. Most of the ads from the 40s show manufacturers scrambling to get that $7-10 hat in a customer's hands. Meanwhile, the higher end hats are barely advertised. They tend to be mentioned only implicitly in an ad, where the ad is for a $10 hat, but the small print at the bottom notes that Stetsons are available in models from $7-$100. This is not to say that there aren't plenty of great $7-10 hats from the 40s. There are. However, there are also hats that are far better.

As James Powers has noted in his posts, only the best hatters worked on the best hats, such as the Cavanagh 100, the Stetson Clear Beaver, etc. Of course these hats were and are limited, just as the best and most expensive of any vintage item always will be. Even if a hat arrives dingy from ebay, I can't see how spending $50 on the best of hats produced by the best of hatters, working at the best of hat companies at their height isn't worth it.

BTW, there have been plenty of posts on the other felt supplier, which seems to be at least the equal of Winchester and, while hats certainly aren't going to make any kind of real comeback, there are individuals making and selling hatting tools. I believe Major Moore currently uses a few of them.