Vintage versus modern ´quality´

[The Wiser Hatter]

I think you want answers that require an effort by yourself to answer. Everyone here on this forum has taken the journey from beginner to seasoned hat wearer. It requires buy hats and finding out what a quality hat is. This can not preformed by anyone else but you.

 

[dutchroo]

The Only Metric that Matters: Value

Huertecilla, there is no magic metric you will find to quantify the qualitative. The only metric is value: specifically, how much are you willing to pay for a hat.

For example, your value of straw hats is next to nothing. Graham Thompson (bespoke hatter) could offer you a Montecristo ultrafino Optimo hat for $100 and because of your value system, you would refuse it. (And many of the folks on this forum would shake their heads in amazement, because they would be willing to pay 10 times that much or more for the same hat.)

This makes the discussion easy, because there are metrics that tell us the grades of quality of a Panama hat, such as material (toquilla palm=good; shantung=poor), source (Montecristi, Equador=good; elsewhere=not good), weave count (higher is better), et cetera.

But realistically, these are just scores on a rating system that lack meaning. I know the difference between my daughter's Mexican-made straw hat and the $1,600 ultrafino Panama hat from Optimo because I have handled both and had both on my head. At that point, the scores are meaningless and unnecessary.

Similarly, no matter how a Panama "scores" on any of these metrics, you would not buy one because you don't want one. It would associate you with a population you do not want to be associated with.

What I think so many of your fellow "Loungers" are saying is that there is no easy, one-size-fits all metric that spells out quality for everyone; you're going to have to go figure out for yourself what you're willing to pay good money for. Some of that may be quantifiable, and hopefully the discussions on this forum will help with that. But you're going to have to get out there and touch and feel and wear some hats to figure that out. You're probably going to make mistakes and make regrettable purchases like the rest of us, but you'll learn from each one. And in the end, you'll have a hat (or a bunch of hats) that you love.

Sincerely, I wish you good luck.

Andrew

 

[Huertecilla]

Thanks Andrew, that is a clear and differentiating perspective.
There are indeed various components involved and the most important ones are subjective. Since emotion usually weighs heavier than ratio, measurables are easily ignored.
That does not mean they should be.

Huertecilla, there is no magic metric you will find to quantify the qualitative. The only metric is value: specifically, how much are you willing to pay for a hat.

There you touch on a crucial personal. It is like the level of perfection. Every nexts step costs as much as all steps before.
This makes the lowest step the highest finish value for money.
The decisive however is where the buyer thinks the minimum level of finish lies ánd how much he is willing to pay.

As the level of perfection is objective it should be simple. It is not because there is no way we can avoid the peer thing, brand reputation nor the group think thing of vintage versus modern.
Still, I have last night greatly enjoyed following threads and chasing/learning quality criteria. Detached from taste there ARE objective differences.
Some criteria cover the border area bewteen ration and tatse. One concrete example I encountered is the sweatband in the Hückels. Matching the materials involved in colour is in itself a design choice covering both taste and quality of design/manufacture. Yes, I would pay extra for that.
Ditto for the stitching to the brim and the closing. The level of attention for detail is vísible. I might even buy such a hat and never wear it, just for the appreciation.

 

[Huertecilla]

Prevention

Similarly, no matter how a Panama "scores" on any of these metrics, you would not buy one because you don't want one. It would associate you with a population you do not want to be associated with.

To prevent misunderstandings:
I dó ´associate´ with this population; when I get down to the village I will probably be drinking a cup of coffee with one or two pensioned Brit Panama hat wearers. Those guys themselves are great people and great fun too.
The crux is that their style is a shot in both feet of ány fashionable flair. The association with their ´stýle´, is the thing I want to avoid.
Btw. one of the blokes I am almost certain to meet up with wears a battered Cartier Santos. Midi size, bi-colour, quartz and :eusa_clap him for that.

 

[Tomasso]

To prevent misunderstandings:
I dó ´associate´ with this population; when I get down to the village I will probably be drinking a cup of coffee with one or two pensioned Brit Panama hat wearers........their ´stýle´, is the thing I want to avoid.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you but few people will differentiate between a panama and a felt fedora so you will be lumped into that group like it or not.[huh]

 

[viclip]

To prevent misunderstandings:
.....
Btw. one of the blokes I am almost certain to meet up with wears a battered Cartier Santos. Midi size, bi-colour, quartz and :eusa_clap him for that.

I can't help thinking but that the father of early aviation as well as the father of the modern wristwatch ~ Alberto Santos-Dumont ~ must be rolling in his grave at the thought of a quartz movement powering a line of timepieces named in his honour. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Huertecilla]

I can't help thinking but that the father of early aviation as well as the father of the modern wristwatch ~ Alberto Santos-Dumont ~ must be rolling in his grave at the thought of a quartz movement powering a line of timepieces named in his honour. Just my 2 cents.

Dûh. He would have júmped to have quartz as he had a wrist watch for accurate time measuring and quartz is better at that. Ditto Lindbergh. Same thing that they would have júmped at the opportunity to have had electronic ignition/fuel injection. They would have applauded the piezo electric effect of quartz in the common rail injectors too.

 

[Huertecilla]

Sorry to be the one to break it to you but few people will differentiate between a panama and a felt fedora so you will be lumped into that group like it or not.[huh]

I am not expecting them to know about the hát.
If a dame cannot differentiate between Brit pensioner style and smart, or jumps to conclusion about a ready made ´bed´, I don´t want her on my arm.
It is the same with watches. No way I am wearing an 18k Rolex going out and not because I expect the dames to understand about watches.

Meanwhile I have made an appointment to visit an andalucian hatmaker´s premises. There is only véry minor variation in those sombreros but the prices are wáy differentiated so that should give some insight into difference in quality.

 

[viclip]

Dûh. He would have júmped to have quartz as he had a wrist watch for accurate time measuring and quartz is better at that. Ditto Lindbergh. Same thing that they would have júmped at the opportunity to have had electronic ignition/fuel injection. They would have applauded the piezo electric effect of quartz in the common rail injectors too.

Actually Santos prevailed upon Cartier to provide him with the men's version of the wristwatch so that he could avoid fumbling about with his pocket watch while in the cockpit needing both hands to remain airborne. The man was a mechanical genius who appreciated marvellous gadgets, which he collected.

 

[Huertecilla]

Actually Santos prevailed upon Cartier to provide him with the men's version of the wristwatch so that he could avoid fumbling about with his pocket watch while in the cockpit needing both hands to remain airborne.

Yes, to facilitate use as a flight instrument. He would have preferred this flight instrument to be 100 times more accurate if would have had that option.
This still applies: have a look at the Breitling temp compensated quartz watches.
I have no doubts whatsoever that Mr.Santos would have strapped it on with mucho gusto and would have marveled at the technology.

You need to understand that the guy was using the high tech of his time. I have no doubt whatsoever that he, like all pioneer aviators, would have done something unspeakable to have had jet engine tech. It is US who are having a clouded nostalgic vision.

 

[Tomasso]

I am not expecting them to know about the hát.
If a dame cannot differentiate between Brit pensioner style and smart............ I don´t want her on my arm.

We'll then I don't understand your reluctance to wear a panama.

 

[gtdean48]

...
As the level of perfection is objective it should be simple....

Please explain your objective way of measuring perfection as it applies to a felt hat?

 

[buler]

Please explain your objective way of measuring perfection as it applies to a felt hat?

op2:

B

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

opcorn: op2:op2:op2:op2:op2:op2:op2:op2:op2:

 

[Huertecilla]

We'll then I don't understand your reluctance to wear a panama.

Ah, but then you don't live here where the Panama goes with pulled up white socks in sandals.

Again; I am not reluctant to wear a Panama.
It is a matter of horses for courses.
The pensioner image is just not suiting the purpose for which I want a smart luxury hat.

 

[fedoracentric]

I was firmly against straw hats when I first came here, too. (For myself, I mean. I didn't care if others wore them)

But with all the posts about them here it got my interest and I ended up buying one, anyway.

I've only worn it a few times, but I went from "why a straw" to "why not a straw" after coming here.

 

[Huertecilla]

Please explain your objective way of measuring perfection as it applies to a felt hat?

Just go back to where I define 'level of perfection'. It is self explanatory in the context. I hope it will be clear because it is as clear as I can make it.

 

[DougC]

GTDean-just for giggles, I googled perfection measured objectively and got the attached article. It appears there are infinite ways to determine what perfection is based on how you measure it (which will change with each person), much like many of the responses to this thread have already stated. It's like my torts professor said, if you change the facts, you change the outcome. Without know what the OP is really trying to look for in his measure of a perfect fur felt hat, we can never answer his questions. So, good on you for your challenge.

http://www.bushido-kai.net/articles/MeasuringOnesGoalofPerfection.pdf

 

[Huertecilla]

I was firmly against straw hats when I first came here, too.

Why ' too' ?
Who do you mean.
Surely not me?!
I clearly and with so many words write that they are THE best for warm weather.
I like them, have them, wear them, will this spring buy a 'better' one, just not wear it for going out.
The latter is part of the pluriform society which offers a infinite variety of different occasions and venues to enjoy in different ways with different people.

 

[gtdean48]

My ignore list grows & grows...