Vintage Cartoons

[vitanola]

As usual, Lizzie is right: it's commerical interests that account for attempts to cover up "embarrassing" old cartoons, not altruistic concerns for anyone's feelings.

Regarding Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs: I have owned a 16mm print of this cartoon for over thirty years, and have shown it in all kinds of contexts - always with a bit of an explanatory preface... and never with anything less than splendid results!

The racial stereotyping in Coal Black is not intended to be offensive, it's played strictly for laughs, along with everything else stuffed into this great cartoon: references to wartime rationing, army life, Citizen Kane, etc. It's very much a product of the freaky energy of the war years, filtered through Bob Clampett's unique direction.

The key comment I always mention when I show it is that the actual target of satire in this cartoon is not the African-American community, but Walt Disney's pretentions in adapting European fairy tales like Snow White in such an uncreatively traditional manner, rather than using America's own unique vernacular, i.e., jazz. Following Tex Avery's lead, Clampett just wants to jazz up these fairy tales for a contemporary audience and have some fun with them.

If you've studied Hollywood cartoons as much as I have, and have seen films that do use racial stereotypes as an end in themselves, that do intend to demean African-Americans, it's very clear that Clampett isn't out to do that in Coal Black (or the equally delightful Tin Pan Alley Cats).

Pretending that decades of comedy - in movies, radio, and vaudeville - wasn't largely based on that period's commonly accepted racial/religious comic stereotypes is a miscarriage of history. It's a lot more enlightening to see the past as it was, both good and bad, than to whitewash it...

One that I've been looking since seeing a black and white television print some twenty-five years ago was "Harlem Hep-cats", which could very well be titled "Fats Waller aux Enfers". Quite droll. I suspect that it was a Bob Clampett number, as it has Clampett's trademark manic pace.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What I don't understand is why ban or censor some, yet I can still catch Tom & Jerry on TV weekday mornings with a character that reminds me of Aunt Jemima? I am almost certain that this character would remind you of here too.

 

[Doctor Strange]

That character was referred to by the people who made those cartoons as "Mammy Two-Shoes".

Oh, and here's a page on the Censored 11: http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/ltcuts/censored11/

 

[Lady Day]

Cartoons in the US has an overwhelming connection to children, period. If its a cartoon, children should be able to watch it.

Most of those cartoons were never meant for kids. They were played before movies started in theaters. I like to say when the shift happened, a lot of the political leaning and propaganda stuff got stowed away. WB and Disney needed to have more family oriented images.

I mean really, Bugs bunny in drag? He did that every episode! Most of the old, and a lot of the lesser known cartoons are in public domain, and therefore all over the tubal interwebs.

I personally LOVE the racist ones. Well, obviously not for content, but considering those were readily available for view within my mother's generation, its astonishing that they just vanished.

As far as them just being cartoons, I don't think that is entirely fair. They are pop culture, and that by its nature reflects the intent of the time. Portraying a black character with no slang or an asian character like Russell in UP, you know, a normal person, wouldn't have happened. They were charactered by their race, first and foremost, because it was easy, and they had to have a quick turn around. 'Personality' in a lot of early cartoons was a one sentence thing. Why waste time on depth beyond the cartoon's message in a 3 min cartoon?

LD

 

[miss_elise]

I guess that doesn't apply to Fritz the Cat (1972) - definitely not safe for children...probably NSFW either

it has an X rating

 

[Viola]

I'm rather fond of The Outbursts of Everett True.

Mr. True on customer service

Mr. True and line-cutters.

 

[Lady Day]

I guess that doesn't apply to Fritz the Cat (1972) - definitely not safe for children...probably NSFW either

it has an X rating

Thats a rather unfair comparison, considering it was originally a comic done by Crumb, notorious for lewd and adult content.

LD

 

[miss_elise]

Thats a rather unfair comparison, considering it was originally a comic done by Crumb, notorious for lewd and adult content.

LD

Sorry, I was agreeing with you about the assumption that cartoons = children being false...

like parents taking kids to see 'avenue q' because it's like 'seasame street' - kind of missing the point there

 

[vitanola]

That character was referred to by the people who made those cartoons as "Mammy Two-Shoes".

Oh, and here's a page on the Censored 11: http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/ltcuts/censored11/

TIN PAN ALLEY CATS! That's it!

After twenty years I obviously had forgotten the correct title.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUgXBQVOizU

 

[Lady Day]

Sorry, I was agreeing with you about the assumption that cartoons = children being false...

like parents taking kids to see 'avenue q' because it's like 'seasame street' - kind of missing the point there

Ah, I see


LD

 

[Widebrim]

What I don't understand is why ban or censor some, yet I can still catch Tom & Jerry on TV weekday mornings with a character that reminds me of Aunt Jemima? I am almost certain that this character would remind you of here too.

True, except that the original "mammy" dialogue was edited a few years ago by MGM, and those are the versions that one usually sees on the tube. I've got some of the originals, and the dialogue is more stereotyped.

 

[Widebrim]

Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips, Herr Meets Hare, Tokio Jokio, The Spirit of '43, Jungle Jitters, and other "banned" cartoons can be seen on Youtube. In the former, Bugs (dressed as a "Good-Rumor" Man passing out grenades disguised as ice cream bars) says to one Japanese soldier, "Here ya are, slant eyes!" Such dialogue was commonly accepted by the mainstream culture during the war.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Well I think parents could provide enough education so the kids wouldn't absorb the racial stereotypes. At least I hope so... Even if nobody explains it to them I rather doubt that they equalize a black catroon cat with a afro american fellow they see outside on the street?

Thank you for the Tin Pan Alley Cats cartoon. I really love the surrealism and of course all that jazz in it.

 

[Doctor Strange]

BTW, all that surreal stuff in Tin Pan Alley Cats is actually recycled from one of Bob Clampett's earlier gems, the amazing 1938 Porky In Wackyland. (This isn't a complaint, just an observation.)

"Dats it! Dats it! Send me outta dis world!!!!"

 

[LizzieMaine]

Well I think parents could provide enough education so the kids wouldn't absorb the racial stereotypes. At least I hope so... Even if nobody explains it to them I rather doubt that they equalize a black catroon cat with a afro american fellow they see outside on the street?

I've always thought the well-meaning-critics don't give kids enough credit -- I'm old enough to have seen many of these cartoons on TV before they were locked away, and it honestly never occured to me that they in any way represented actual people -- it's kind of hard to think that when you're also processing the significance of a transvestite rabbit.

I think in a lot of cases, adults project their own reactions onto children out of shame, but kids tend to be a lot smarter than the grownups realize about such things.

 

[LizzieMaine]

True, except that the original "mammy" dialogue was edited a few years ago by MGM, and those are the versions that one usually sees on the tube. I've got some of the originals, and the dialogue is more stereotyped.

Some of them were redubbed more than once -- at some point in the sixties, the dialogue was redubbed to an Irish accent, and in scenes where the maid appeared (usually just her arms, legs, and feet), she was re-animated to be white. Then again in the 80s or 90s, they went back to the original animation with a new African-American actress providing the voice minus the dialect.

None of these replacements, though, quite capture the sense of sputtering frustration that Lillian Randolph -- a very fine actress with a long and successful career in radio -- gave to the original character.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm rather fond of The Outbursts of Everett True.

Mr. True on customer service

Mr. True and line-cutters.

Everett True is one of the most inspirational figures in 20th Century literature, and all right thinking people revere him. He also appeared in animated cartoons around 1915-16, and I'd dearly love to see some of them. I imagine the level of violent political incorrectness would back Tom and Jerry right off the map.

"Confound your gabble!!"

 

[skyvue]

Should Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda in the forms of movies, literature, etc. also remain commercially available and be shown on television?

Academics should be able to study it, yes, but should it be served up as commercially available entertainment?

Edit: I mean the above in a purely devil's-advocate way. I do think Lizzie's on the mark with her observation that these cartoons are no longer as freely shown in an effort to shield children from seeing them. After all, there are certainly plenty of offensively stereotypical depictions of African Americans in live-action movies of the 1920s-'40s, and those are still shown on networks like TCM.

The cartoons do seem to go a bit further down the stereotype track than the movies, but that's up for debate, too; it could be argued that no character in a cartoon is worse than Stepin Fetchit.

 

[Undertow]

Should Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda in the forms of movies, literature, etc. also remain commercially available and be shown on television?

Academics should be able to study it, yes, but should it be served up as commercially available entertainment?

Edit: I mean the above in a purely devil's-advocate way. I do think Lizzie's on the mark with her observation that these cartoons are no longer as freely shown in an effort to shield children from seeing them. After all, there are certainly plenty of offensively stereotypical depictions of African Americans in live-action movies of the 1920s-'40s, and those are still shown on networks like TCM.

The cartoons do seem to go a bit further down the stereotype track than the movies, but that's up for debate, too; it could be argued that no character in a cartoon is worse than Stepin Fetchit.

I think there are two questions that should be examined each time we consider “censoring” and “banning” these throwback cartoons. Why should we allow these to be aired? Who will this actually hurt, and more specifically, how exactly will it hurt them?

I’m not saying there is some perfect litmus test for all media, but at the same time, I understand we need some guidelines. In fact, I think the freedom of speech, at least in America, should truly trump all. That said, would I condone an outwardly racist cartoon or movie specifically intended to harm one particular group of people, and possibly incite others to harm that group as well? No, I wouldn’t condone it. But should the creators be allowed to publish it? Absolutely.

In regard to the Cartoons we’ve been mentioning, should those still be aired? Sure, why not? Like you said, there are classic movies on TMC that depict Africans and African-Americans in a pretty disparaging way, but were the movies developed strictly for derision and racism, or was there actually supposed to be some entertainment value to the work? And why are we watching them? To continue our hatred of a particular race? Or to be entertained by a story, or some antics, or comedy, etc.? [huh]

And before I get too out of hand here, I’m talking about peoples’ judgment to watch or publish these things. I HATE the current obscenity laws which I believe are unconstitutional because I don’t think any government should impose censorship. :rage: Too political, so I’ll stop there.

 

[Widebrim]

Should Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda in the forms of movies, literature, etc. also remain commercially available and be shown on television?

Academics should be able to study it, yes, but should it be served up as commercially available entertainment?

And who would decide which of these would be available only to academicians? That is the question. Sort of like when for centuries the Roman Catholic Church witheld most of the Bible in vernacular languages from the common people.