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Vintage Car Thread - Discussion and Parts Requests
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LizzieMaine
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This particular '41 Dodge is actually a Plymouth in Dodge disguise -- Chrysler built them for export to Canada and for some reason the Dodge brand sold better than the Plymouth north of the border. It's the stripped down entry-level model, so no Fluid Drive or any of the other bells and whistles of the moment. Most every part on it is completely interchangeable with the regular US-market Plymouth of that year -- the US Dodge looks substantially different.
The engine is a 218 flathead six, which seems to be very much The Nuts so far as old engines go, and that's something very much in its favor for me -- simple, reliable, and bulletproof. The odd thing about the Canadian Dodges is that they actually used Chrylser or DeSoto engines instead of the slightly shorter Plymouth engine, which is about the only thing upscale about it.
As you see, I've been doing heavy research. I'm talking to the seller tomorrow morning and I intend to be prepared.
The engine is a 218 flathead six, which seems to be very much The Nuts so far as old engines go, and that's something very much in its favor for me -- simple, reliable, and bulletproof. The odd thing about the Canadian Dodges is that they actually used Chrylser or DeSoto engines instead of the slightly shorter Plymouth engine, which is about the only thing upscale about it.
As you see, I've been doing heavy research. I'm talking to the seller tomorrow morning and I intend to be prepared.
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Carl Miller
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Good on ya! One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone goes to buy an old car and expects modern reliability and parts resources and then complains like its the cars fault that it needs a few $$$ in TLC after a mere 40/50/60 years of faithful service. You seem to have a very good grasp on what to expect. I hope this is the car for you. 
Stanley Doble
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Lizzie you are perfectly correct about the engines. It happened like this. The Canadian factory had no engine foundry until 1938. They used engines imported from the US. When they built their own engine facility they only had resources to set up for one engine so they chose the larger Chrysler/DeSoto model, then made a special small bore model for Plymouth and Dodge. The Chrysler/DeSoto version had a 3 7/16 bore, the P/D version 1/16 smaller at 3 3/8.
By using different stroke crankshafts they made engines of 218, 228, 237, 251 and 265 cu in. These were used in cars, trucks, boats, industrial engines etc from 1938 to 1972. Parts are still readily available cheap.
I don't want to get into a lot of detail that may not be appropriate for this board. But you could look at this web site, it caters to Plymouth and Dodge owners especially the forties and early fifties models.
http://www40.addr.com/~merc583/mopar/framesets/welcomeframeset.html
They can tell you everything you want to know about old Dodges and Plymouths.
I can also tell you where to get parts cheap.
By the way about the Hodge Podge Dodge. In those days Canada had a heavy import duty on cars. So it paid the car makers to set up branch plants in Canada. But as the Canadian market was only 1/10 the size of the US, it was not practical to make a bunch of different models. So they tended to make cars like your Dodge, by using the basic Plymouth car they already had, and turning it into a Dodge with a few changes to the trim, emblems and a slightly bigger motor.
Another odd fact. Since Canada was part of the British Empire, and later the British Commonwealth of Nations, there was no import duty on Canadian cars sent to Empire markets. So a lot of "American" cars seen in foreign countries were actually made in Canada or assembled from parts made in Canada.
Many Plymouths were built in Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler trim for sale in England and other export markets.
By using different stroke crankshafts they made engines of 218, 228, 237, 251 and 265 cu in. These were used in cars, trucks, boats, industrial engines etc from 1938 to 1972. Parts are still readily available cheap.
I don't want to get into a lot of detail that may not be appropriate for this board. But you could look at this web site, it caters to Plymouth and Dodge owners especially the forties and early fifties models.
http://www40.addr.com/~merc583/mopar/framesets/welcomeframeset.html
They can tell you everything you want to know about old Dodges and Plymouths.
I can also tell you where to get parts cheap.
By the way about the Hodge Podge Dodge. In those days Canada had a heavy import duty on cars. So it paid the car makers to set up branch plants in Canada. But as the Canadian market was only 1/10 the size of the US, it was not practical to make a bunch of different models. So they tended to make cars like your Dodge, by using the basic Plymouth car they already had, and turning it into a Dodge with a few changes to the trim, emblems and a slightly bigger motor.
Another odd fact. Since Canada was part of the British Empire, and later the British Commonwealth of Nations, there was no import duty on Canadian cars sent to Empire markets. So a lot of "American" cars seen in foreign countries were actually made in Canada or assembled from parts made in Canada.
Many Plymouths were built in Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler trim for sale in England and other export markets.
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Stanley Doble
Call Me a Cab
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You are correct about the engine, one of the best of its time. It has modern features like insert bearings and full pressure oiling (Chevrolet did not get this till 1954) as well as heavy duty valves and valve seat inserts. It will run perfectly happily on unleaded gas, and is not prone to overheating like Ford's flathead.
It is a long lived engine and will keep up with normal traffic within reason, meaning up to 60 MPH but happier at 45-50.
It is a long lived engine and will keep up with normal traffic within reason, meaning up to 60 MPH but happier at 45-50.
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LizzieMaine
Bartender
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- Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
Well, the discussions went well, and we've agreed on $6700. He's fixed the horn and will work on the brake light today. The brakes, steering and suspension have all been maintained over the years, but he does recommend the clutch be dealt with, although he doesn't think the one on there is the original -- he hasn't replaced it since he's had it, but that's not to say it might not have been changed at some point in the past. He's going to get someone to haul it down here for me to spare the trouble of trying to drive, and I'll get it looked at locally once it gets here. My usual mechanic in town has been around a while and ought to be able to assess the clutch situation and tell me anything else that I need to know.
Angus Forbes
One of the Regulars
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Congratulations -- Beautiful car!
David Conwill
Call Me a Cab
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Wonderful! It warms my heart to see you in an old MoPar.
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Justin B
One Too Many
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Congrats Lizzie!
The clutch won't be as big a deal as you think. The actual part on those runs about $100 and a couple hours of labor to actually do it.
The clutch won't be as big a deal as you think. The actual part on those runs about $100 and a couple hours of labor to actually do it.
Stanley Doble
Call Me a Cab
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- Cobourg
"Thanx for all the food for thought, folks. It was last registered in 2008, which would suggest the import issue has been dealt with, which is a relief -- I hadn't thought of that angle.
There was no trouble starting it at all -- one punch of the button and it started right up. Ran a little rough, but I don't know how old the gas in the tank was."
The engine is probably OK then. May need a tuneup and some driving and will be fine.
" The clutch grabs and holds well enough to move the car around the yard, but there's quite a bit of play in the pedal. It may just need an adjustment, but on the other hand there's 91,000 miles on the odometer and I don't know yet if it's ever had a full clutch job done."
You are probably right about the adjustment. Fluid Drive was available at that time on the usual optional basis. If your car has Fluid Drive it could feel like a slipping clutch. You can stop the car in gear with the motor running and pull away like an automatic. The Fluid Drive is a very simple, reliable system but does take a slightly different driving technique. It is one of those things you can learn in a few minutes but might take a long time to figure out on your own.
" I didn't notice any issues with the brakes -- no pulling this way or that -- but I didn't get it up to road speed, I just looped it around the yard and back. Fortunately I live about fifty miles from the nearest multi-lane highway, so I'm not too worried about keeping up with traffic -- I just want to be able to get it home without any catastrophic failures. There's a lot of hills between there and here, and having driven that route before with a slippy clutch, I don't want to take chances."
I do recommend changing the fluid and having the brakes checked on general principles especially if the car has been out of commission for 4 years. As I said, they were very good brakes for their time and if they are adjusted correctly you should have no trouble.
"I figure a clutch job would cost $1000-$1500 or so, just based on what seems to be the going rate around here, so that's affecting what I'd be willing to pay. Even if it doesn't need it immediately, it's going to need it in the near future, so I'm sort of planning on that."
Should not be anywhere near that expensive. Clutch plate and pressure plate are available from your local NAPA or other good parts store. Look for an old dusty shop with an old bald headed or gray haired parts man, the kind of place farmers shop. Parts are no more expensive than for a new car, probably cheaper. Parts $100 - $200 depending if you need a pressure plate and throwout bearing, labor about 2 -3 hours.
"The tires are at least "several" years old, so I'm figuring that's another likely expense."
Tires lose half their strength after 5 years even if they are just sitting around. If the sides are cracking you should be thinking of new tires.
Believe it or not, you want to buy either the cheapest tires or the most expensive. Let me explain. A few years ago I went thru this on my 1951 DeSoto. I found 225R15 radial tires to be the closest new tires to the original size and the very closest, were the cheapest Walmart Marshall 791 tires. They were a good 2" narrower than "name brand" tires of the same nominal size. In other words, the closest to the original tall skinny tires. Even Walmart tires are about 5 times better than the best tires made in 1941.
The alternative is to buy bias ply, or wide whitewall tires from specialist suppliers at 3 to 5 times the cost. I think the Walmart blackwalls look fine and work just as well.
"There's also some relatively minor interior work that needs to be done -- the headliner could stand to be replaced, and there are a couple of broken knobs that can be found easily enough on eBay, so I'm not too worried about any of that stuff.
I had vacuum wipers on my old VW, so expectations aren't very high there anyway. The passenger side seemed to work fine, and I didn't get a good look at the hoses, so possibly it's as simple as that. Replacement motors don't seem too hard to find if worse comes to worse. "
Headliners are available and not too expensive. They are easy to make if you have a sewing machine, and not hard to install at home.
The vacuum wipers, if they work, can probably do with a little oil. This is not hard to do. I believe the Dodge had a Trico wiper system with a vacuum motor, which drove the 2 wipers by cables. If worst comes to worst, rebuilt motors are about $165. The cable system might be faulty or as I said before, the wiper arm slipping on the shaft.
It is possible you have electric wipers. I know the Chrysler Corporation was a pioneer of electric wipers, they definitely had them in the later 40s. By 1950 practically all their cars had them. Compare to Cadillac that did not get electric wipers till the late 50s and Rambler that still had vacuum in 1962.
"The owner himself wasn't there when I checked it out, but I talked to his sons and got a basic idea of the situation -- the car had belonged to the guy's mother, and they used to drive it to parades and shows and such, so it hasn't gotten a whole lot of use since the restoration in the '80s, and has been stored inside. I plan to talk to the owner himself on Wednesday and I have a whole page of questions I plan to ask about what, if anything, has been done to the engine and other mechanicals over the years. The engine itself looked very clean -- no evidence of any oozing oil, no gas smell around the base of the carburetor, sediment bowl was clean, new-looking oil filter, etc., so it looks like at least basic maintenance has been done."
It sounds like you got a good one, a well cared for car still in the hands of the original owner's family. Never allowed to deteriorate, was restored and kept inside. A real nice find.
Have it inspected and all fluids changed, especially look at all rubber parts like brake lines, rad hoses, fuel lines, heater hoses etc. They get mummified or cracked or soften up over the years.
Get it on the road, take it for some gentle drives, make note of any funny smells, noises, etc that need attention. Work up to a drive of 50 or 100 miles, if it will do that you should have no more trouble.
Just remember a car that age needs service more often than a new car. Oil change and grease job every 1000 miles (I would extend that to 2000 or 3000 with today's oils, if you have a filter). Tune up once or twice a year. That sort of thing. Fortunately everything is easier to get at and cheaper to deal with than today's cars.
You should be able to drive that car to your heart's content once you get it sorted. Hope you have a lot of nice rides.
*Later. I did a web search, the more expensive 1941 Dodge Custom series came with electric wipers as standard equipment. Not sure about the lower priced models.
There was no trouble starting it at all -- one punch of the button and it started right up. Ran a little rough, but I don't know how old the gas in the tank was."
The engine is probably OK then. May need a tuneup and some driving and will be fine.
" The clutch grabs and holds well enough to move the car around the yard, but there's quite a bit of play in the pedal. It may just need an adjustment, but on the other hand there's 91,000 miles on the odometer and I don't know yet if it's ever had a full clutch job done."
You are probably right about the adjustment. Fluid Drive was available at that time on the usual optional basis. If your car has Fluid Drive it could feel like a slipping clutch. You can stop the car in gear with the motor running and pull away like an automatic. The Fluid Drive is a very simple, reliable system but does take a slightly different driving technique. It is one of those things you can learn in a few minutes but might take a long time to figure out on your own.
" I didn't notice any issues with the brakes -- no pulling this way or that -- but I didn't get it up to road speed, I just looped it around the yard and back. Fortunately I live about fifty miles from the nearest multi-lane highway, so I'm not too worried about keeping up with traffic -- I just want to be able to get it home without any catastrophic failures. There's a lot of hills between there and here, and having driven that route before with a slippy clutch, I don't want to take chances."
I do recommend changing the fluid and having the brakes checked on general principles especially if the car has been out of commission for 4 years. As I said, they were very good brakes for their time and if they are adjusted correctly you should have no trouble.
"I figure a clutch job would cost $1000-$1500 or so, just based on what seems to be the going rate around here, so that's affecting what I'd be willing to pay. Even if it doesn't need it immediately, it's going to need it in the near future, so I'm sort of planning on that."
Should not be anywhere near that expensive. Clutch plate and pressure plate are available from your local NAPA or other good parts store. Look for an old dusty shop with an old bald headed or gray haired parts man, the kind of place farmers shop. Parts are no more expensive than for a new car, probably cheaper. Parts $100 - $200 depending if you need a pressure plate and throwout bearing, labor about 2 -3 hours.
"The tires are at least "several" years old, so I'm figuring that's another likely expense."
Tires lose half their strength after 5 years even if they are just sitting around. If the sides are cracking you should be thinking of new tires.
Believe it or not, you want to buy either the cheapest tires or the most expensive. Let me explain. A few years ago I went thru this on my 1951 DeSoto. I found 225R15 radial tires to be the closest new tires to the original size and the very closest, were the cheapest Walmart Marshall 791 tires. They were a good 2" narrower than "name brand" tires of the same nominal size. In other words, the closest to the original tall skinny tires. Even Walmart tires are about 5 times better than the best tires made in 1941.
The alternative is to buy bias ply, or wide whitewall tires from specialist suppliers at 3 to 5 times the cost. I think the Walmart blackwalls look fine and work just as well.
"There's also some relatively minor interior work that needs to be done -- the headliner could stand to be replaced, and there are a couple of broken knobs that can be found easily enough on eBay, so I'm not too worried about any of that stuff.
I had vacuum wipers on my old VW, so expectations aren't very high there anyway. The passenger side seemed to work fine, and I didn't get a good look at the hoses, so possibly it's as simple as that. Replacement motors don't seem too hard to find if worse comes to worse. "
Headliners are available and not too expensive. They are easy to make if you have a sewing machine, and not hard to install at home.
The vacuum wipers, if they work, can probably do with a little oil. This is not hard to do. I believe the Dodge had a Trico wiper system with a vacuum motor, which drove the 2 wipers by cables. If worst comes to worst, rebuilt motors are about $165. The cable system might be faulty or as I said before, the wiper arm slipping on the shaft.
It is possible you have electric wipers. I know the Chrysler Corporation was a pioneer of electric wipers, they definitely had them in the later 40s. By 1950 practically all their cars had them. Compare to Cadillac that did not get electric wipers till the late 50s and Rambler that still had vacuum in 1962.
"The owner himself wasn't there when I checked it out, but I talked to his sons and got a basic idea of the situation -- the car had belonged to the guy's mother, and they used to drive it to parades and shows and such, so it hasn't gotten a whole lot of use since the restoration in the '80s, and has been stored inside. I plan to talk to the owner himself on Wednesday and I have a whole page of questions I plan to ask about what, if anything, has been done to the engine and other mechanicals over the years. The engine itself looked very clean -- no evidence of any oozing oil, no gas smell around the base of the carburetor, sediment bowl was clean, new-looking oil filter, etc., so it looks like at least basic maintenance has been done."
It sounds like you got a good one, a well cared for car still in the hands of the original owner's family. Never allowed to deteriorate, was restored and kept inside. A real nice find.
Have it inspected and all fluids changed, especially look at all rubber parts like brake lines, rad hoses, fuel lines, heater hoses etc. They get mummified or cracked or soften up over the years.
Get it on the road, take it for some gentle drives, make note of any funny smells, noises, etc that need attention. Work up to a drive of 50 or 100 miles, if it will do that you should have no more trouble.
Just remember a car that age needs service more often than a new car. Oil change and grease job every 1000 miles (I would extend that to 2000 or 3000 with today's oils, if you have a filter). Tune up once or twice a year. That sort of thing. Fortunately everything is easier to get at and cheaper to deal with than today's cars.
You should be able to drive that car to your heart's content once you get it sorted. Hope you have a lot of nice rides.
*Later. I did a web search, the more expensive 1941 Dodge Custom series came with electric wipers as standard equipment. Not sure about the lower priced models.
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LizzieMaine
Bartender
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- Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
That's very helpful to know about the tires -- that's something I'm going to have to address early on. Oil changes and stuff I can do myself, but while they have it up on the rack I'll have them pull the wheels and have a look at the bearings and such. I know how to pack bearings on my bike, but I don't want to mess around with a car.
Congratulations on your new old car. From the photo you posted earlier, it's a real beauty. I hope it gives you many years of driving enjoyment.
dhermann1
I'll Lock Up
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Lizzie! I'm so happy for you! Congratulations! As I recall, you've mentioned a number of times that a '41 Plymouth was your dream car. This didn't happen out of the blue. Had you been hunting long?
And one more thought. Maybe you'd better go over to your faithful old bicycle and have a little chat with it. Make sure it knows you still love it, and will use it and ride it almost as much as you used to, and that it's not losing an owner, it's gaining a garage mate.
And one more thought. Maybe you'd better go over to your faithful old bicycle and have a little chat with it. Make sure it knows you still love it, and will use it and ride it almost as much as you used to, and that it's not losing an owner, it's gaining a garage mate.
LizzieMaine
Bartender
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- Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
The cleaning out of the garage is going to be one of the more monstrous chores of the decade, I fear. My garage has a board floor set on cement pilings, and there's a beech tree growing so close to the side of it that it's pushed the front away from the driveway, so I'm not sure that two tons of vehicle is going to fit easily into it. Fortunately, the car comes with a waterproof cover which will shield it while I figure out what to do about it.
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Lizzie - Congrats!
If I can give some advice - find a newstand that carries a copy of Hemmings Motor News - in it you can find most of the people that specialize in Dodge stuff. You may be able to find if there is a Dodge Club which is a good place to ask questions as to the where do i find or where do I get or how to fix etc.
My friends at Egge Machine do mostly engine stuff but they also carry some of what is callled bolt on parts like water pumps etc. IF they don't carry what you need just ask them who does and they'll usually point you in the right direction. 800-866-3443
Lastly see if there are any repair manuals for your car- it will help you do the small stuff and explain more if you need to do something a bit bigger.
My sincere best wishes!
John Erickson
LizzieMaine
Bartender
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Thanx for the kind words!
The original shop manual comes with the car, so assuming vital pages aren't obliterated by grease spills I ought to be all right with that. A friend is working this summer at the Transportation Museum over in the next town, and I'm going to see if they have any resources I might tap into over there as well. One of the popcorn kids from work has volunteered to come over once the car is here to help clean it up a bit inside, and I'll definitely take advantage of that -- all she wants in return is a ride.
The original shop manual comes with the car, so assuming vital pages aren't obliterated by grease spills I ought to be all right with that. A friend is working this summer at the Transportation Museum over in the next town, and I'm going to see if they have any resources I might tap into over there as well. One of the popcorn kids from work has volunteered to come over once the car is here to help clean it up a bit inside, and I'll definitely take advantage of that -- all she wants in return is a ride.
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Congrats on the car, Lizzie! I have a feeling you won't be disappointed. I think the two of you will make a lovely pair.
Carl Miller
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 154
- Location
- Santa Rosa, Ca
Congratulations!
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