Vintage Car Thread - Discussion and Parts Requests

[GHT]

Speaking of brakes, here's a new one: over the past few days my brakes have started to feel spongier than usual, and today I finally got a few minutes to check them, and there wasn't a drop of brake fluid in the master cylinder reservoir. I know it was full when the brake lines were replaced in early June, and I've been driving it constantly ever since, even though I've had a back-of-my-mind feeling that it was taking more force to brake than I was used to.

But -- there is no sign that I could see of brake fluid leakage. No new spots on the garage or driveway floor, no sign of fluid dribbling down the sides of the tires or around the back of the wheels, the bleeding nipples all seem tight, and the master cylinder itself didn't feel any wetter/greasier than usual. So where did the brake fluid *go?*

Where did the brake fluid go indeed? I experienced almost similar symptoms in my car a couple of months ago. I too had noticed that braking was a case of heavy footed pressure. Then one Sunday, I took the car down a particularly steep hill and horrors, the brakes were not enough to stop it. The handbrake had helped slow it to about 15 or so mph, and just as I approached a junction, a gap in the traffic appeared, just managed to get into that space safely.

Later, in the workshop, an inspection of the brakes showed the front offside seal had perished and brake fluid was leaking into the wheel between the drum and the brake. The fluid was the reason the brakes were less efficient and the heat generated by the braking was causing the fluid to evaporate, which is why I couldn't detect a leak on the garage floor.

I had the seals on all the brakes replaced and haven't had a spot of bother with it since. But it was a seriously clenched buttock moment at the time.

 

[Big Man]

... But it was a seriously clenched buttock moment at the time.

I can relate to that feeling. When I was in high school (many years ago), I drove a school bus. The bus I had was a 1952 Dodge, number "E-52". This bus still had the old foot starter in the floor and vacuum wipers. It had a true "emergency brake", the kind that had a ratchet type lever that was located right beside the gear shift.

Our school sat on a hill. The road out of the schoolyard was a steep grade of about 50 yards that ended at the intersection with the main highway. I left out of the school with that old bus one morning and, when the time came to apply the brakes going down the hill, the pedal went slam straight to the floor and stayed there. NO BRAKES AT ALL ! :eeek: I grabbed the emergency brake and pulled it back as hard as I could. Fortunately that held, and the bus came to a smoking, screeching tire stop all the way across the main highway and with the front wheels right on the edge of the far side of the road bank (overlooking a nice drop-off, mind you).

Those dual-tire black marks stayed on the road for a while, and served as a daily reminder to check my brakes prior to starting down that hill. Even today, more than 40 years later, I still get a cringe when I drive by that hill.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Well, I had them take a look at the brake situation today, and the right rear cylinder had been leaking to beat the band. Replaced it with an NOS cylinder which I provided, and the pedal is nice and high. Went out for a thirteen-mile drive tonite, however, and when I got home I smelled the smell of hot brakes -- and my right rear hubcap was sizzling hot to the touch. Drums were hot all around, but the right rear was really hot. Not smoking, but if I'd gone another five miles I'd have put on a show.

This isn't like the problems I had before -- the pressure in the pedal didn't seem to be building up, and the brake lights were not stuck on. Am I looking at a bad-out-of-the-box replacement cylinder (it had been rebuilt using fresh rubber), or just brakes that weren't properly adjusted after the replacement?

 

[Stanley Doble]

Not properly adjusted, or not properly assembled. The NOS cylinder could have been faulty or full of rust but they should have checked it before they installed it.

Wait till it cools down, jack up the wheel and see how hard it is to turn, if you are curious. Or return it to the garage by tow truck.

I feel bad about all the trouble you have had with your brakes. If I was working on them none of this would have happened. I don't know how they make such nonsense out of simple drum brakes unless they don't have a manual and are trying to set them up as if they were cheap GM or Ford brakes.

 

[LizzieMaine]

This wasn't my regular guy, so I'm going to wait until he's back before I take it over again. He's had better luck working on them than anybody else around here.

I do give them my shop manual for guidance, but I dunno if they actually use it. Makes me wonder with all the grief I've had.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Unlike the loose leaf brakes featured by inferior makes, all Chrysler products had precision brakes. They will stop the car straight and true, and are not prone to locking up unexpectedly in hard stops. They were state of the art for the times.

However they must be put together right, and adjusted right. Once they are put together and adjusted they should work great for years, with just a simple adjustment from time to time to take up wear.

Unfortunately not many know how to put them together right, and certain old time equipment like grinders for contouring the brake shoes to the drums, and the correct measuring devices for adjustment, are as rare as the Dodo birds.

 

[rjb1]

Having driven a *lot* of miles on GM brakes, and stopped successfully for all of them, I take exception to that Mopar-centric comment.
Remember that we are talking here and now about a Mopar with brake/stopping problems.

They all work well if good parts are used which are installed and adjusted properly. That's the problem here, most likely: you can't get good parts for old cars and most so-called mechanics don't know how to install or adjust the parts that they can get.

Lizzie: This may be a radical suggestion, but considering all the things you know about and successfully work on already, from telephones to TV's to washing machines, it may be the best move to fix the brakes yourself. You've got a shop manual and more intelligence and aptitude than 2 or 3 modern "mechanics" put together. I don't know your time and space situation, but an awful lot of brakes have been installed right in people's driveways (including mine).
To me, this says it all:
"This wasn't my regular guy, so I'm going to wait until he's back before I take it over again. He's had better luck working on them than anybody else around here.

I do give them my shop manual for guidance, but I dunno if they actually use it. Makes me wonder with all the grief I've had."

Using the words "luck" and "grief" when talking about brakes is not a good thing.

 

[Stanley Doble]

If you had worked on both Chrysler built and GM built cars of the fifties, as I have, you would know that the Chrysler brakes are more complicated, more expensive, harder to service correctly, but miles better than anything GM had at that time.

Chrysler brakes, if they are set up right, will stop a car straight and true without the grabbing and locking up that plagues GM brakes under hard use.

It's not just me. GM engineers felt the same way. When they were building a hand made Corvette race car in 1957 they built their own independent rear suspension, special chassis, special body, and cast special finned aluminum brake drums (which later showed up on Buicks) but they went to Chrysler for their Centerplane brakes .

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/chevrolet-corvette-ss-brakes-and-chassis-page-4

 

[Stanley Doble]

I will agree that in normal driving most people would not know the difference between GM and Chrysler brakes, as long as they are working properly.

It is kind of a reaction to the idea that drum brakes are no good and must be replaced by disc brakes. In most cases, on an old car the drum brakes are fine IF they are working right. Any brakes will cause problems if worn out, out of adjustment, leaking, broken etc.

Lots of people have put disc brakes on old cars when all they needed to do was replace the worn parts on the original brakes.

It is frustrating to me, all the problems Lizzie is having. I can't help thinking that if she could take her car to a Chrysler/Plymouth dealer, circa 1950, none of this would have happened.

 

[HeyMoe]

Just dropped over $200 bucks on wheel cylinders for my 39 dodge. Have one that is leaking so i figure I might as well do all 4.

 

[rjb1]

Just for clarification, our discussion of GM vs. Chrysler brake theory and practice is more for our enjoyment and won't really help Lizzie's situation, but it's fun to do while we're waiting for the next episode of the soap-opera, "As the Brakes Fade".

As a mechanical engineer, I have always had a good deal of respect for Chrysler engineers and their designs. However, it sounds like their brakes were sort of like their engines: overly complex and expensive. If Chrysler brakes are "...more complicated. more expensive, harder to service correctly..." but "... in normal driving most people would not know the difference between GM and Chrysler brakes..." that may be a sign that they are over-engineered.
There is something to be said for "Keep-It-Simple-Stupid (KISS)", when it comes to engineering.

In the old days I used to almost swoon (and still almost do) at a Chrysler 392 Hemi-powered fuel dragster, but for normal driving that engine was too heavy, too complicated, and too expensive. Chrysler apparently thought so also since they discontinued it after 1958.

 

[GHT]

Just dropped over $200 bucks on wheel cylinders for my 39 dodge. Have one that is leaking so i figure I might as well do all 4.

Mine cost me £160 which is about $250 so you got a better deal!

 

[HeyMoe]

Mine were $65USD each. Hurts as they were the most expensive ones on the site, but they are the only ones available for a 1939 dodge.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I've thought about doing it myself but for two things -- I don't have anyplace good to do that kind of work except my driveway, which is lumpy and misshapen and I wouldn't trust it with a jack, and worst of all, my vision is very very poor and I'd be afraid of missing something vital. If I screw up a radio or a TV, the consequences aren't fatal, but messing with brakes can very well be.

I do most of the routine maintenance on the car myself, but I'm more comfortable having a professional handle the brakes. The guy I normally use owned a 1940 Plymouth, so he at least knows the ground rules. It's just getting this particular car set up right.

I will say, in defense of these brakes, that I've driven about 2500 miles this season with very little trouble. When they're working, they work fine. It's just these little component failures and adjustment issues that are getting my goat.

I ordered a pair of those $65 Andy Bernbaum cylinders today myself, along with a set of rear bearings in case my overheating adventure last night cooked them, and we'll see what happens from there.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Never heard of overheating brakes damaging bearings. Or even seals which are more heat sensitive.

I agree with rjb about old Chrysler products being over complicated in some respects. Every part on a Chrysler built car looks like it costs more to make, and is better quality, than the corresponding part on competitive makes. Especially in the Golden Era.

About the hemi engines. Every pure racing engine built after 1912 was a hemi head design, in Europe and America. Simply because it was the best, and most efficient. Chrysler was the first American company to put such an engine in a mass produced car. Their engines produced more power, from a smaller displacement, than any other engine, and got better mileage while burning low cost regular gas.

Other engines were cheaper to build but could not match the efficiency or power of the hemi head design.

However, this did not translate into a sales advantage on the showroom floor. So, they dropped the hemi head design and replaced it with a conventional engine that was simpler, lighter, cheaper to make, but still had certain features that made it a little more efficient and long lived than other engines.

I could also point out that in more recent times all car companies have gone to the hemi engine, or as close as they can get to it, starting with the Germans and Japanese.

Chrysler brought out a new hemi head V8 and V6 for their flagship 300 model, nearly 10 years ago.

So, they weren't wrong. Just 50 years ahead of their times.

 

[Stanley Doble]

I wish you could examine the Chrysler brakes and appreciate what went into the design. And why they were better, and why you probably wouldn't notice the difference unless you had to make an emergency stop.

I could also point out, that Chrysler invented the Safety Rim wheel about 1940, and held the patent on it. They offered to license it to the rest of the industry free of charge in the interest of road safety but no one took them up on it. This would have prevented hundreds of crashes due to tire blowouts, but it would have cost a few pennies per wheel.

Another feature was left hand threads on the left side wheels. Normally you would never know the difference, but if the wheel nuts were not completely tight, right hand threads would soon unscrew themselves while left hand threads do not. This was proven in road tests by independent testers. Another thing that cost a few extra pennies, but saved lives.

There are other little details no one but an engineer or mechanic would notice, the reason Chrysler had a reputation for building an engineer's car.

 

[fashion frank]

Vintage eye Candy

Hi folks ,I went to a roaring twenties lawn party and here are some of the cars that were there .


















All the Best,Fashion Frank

 

[dh66]

Some great rides Frank! Looks like a great way to spend the day.

 

[GHT]

Great looking cars Frank, I am so jealous. And that suit, wow, just wow.

It seems that since acquiring the MG, I've become less of a problem in the: What shall we buy him for his..........

 

[Stearmen]

Great looking cars Frank, I am so jealous. And that suit, wow, just wow.

It seems that since acquiring the MG, I've become less of a problem in the: What shall we buy him for his..........

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Has your family been watching, Pimp My Ride?