Ventile

[H.Johnson]

Rob,

That was I, and you are misquoting me, or maybe misunderstanding what I said. What I said (look it up) was that I had bought a number of Aero FQHH jackets over the years and, while they were stiff at first, I didn't find them that uncomfortable to wear. That's very different from what you say below.

Please be careful not to let your personal prejudices about national characteristics influence the sense of what you are reading...

<Snip>
I think someone on this forum made the comment regarding people who tried to break in their Aero jackets through artificial means, that one should simply wear them and be uncomfortable in them until they were broken in (however long that might take). Stiff upper lip and all that. Keep calm and carry on…

Rob

 

[Creeping Past]

265 British pounds for a jacket used for bird watching? $430?

Have you seen what other FL people are paying for
engineer boots?!

If I understand these posts, one should just live with being damp. In our work we often have to stand around in the rain or work in the rain. Everybody I know carefully selects rain suits that will keep them dry, really dry and yet breath enough so they don’t sweat. That includes waterproof boot covers and gloves that don’t soak up water. Why put up with being damp? Who wants to be damp? Damp wool can surely keep you warm, but its still damp.

As BT suggested, most of the people posting here are more or less carrying on previous discussions from matters that have come up on other threads... and we're very keen on old kit and old materials.

As DDR said, we're also getting into the finer points of using the right materials for different weather conditions and climates and degrees of activity. If I was going to be out in heavy rain not moving much, I'd want to wear the thickest outer layer possible and probably wouldn't be thinking to hard about its breathability. If I was moving a lot, I'd want the worst of the rain kept off me, but would want to be able to move freely and would want maximum fabric breathability.

If you're out in the wet you're going to get damp, either from the inside or the outside. There's no material that gives a perfect balance on that score, except human skin under ideal conditions and even that'll get critically waterlogged after a while.

Using natural fibres for field clothing is not limited to the UK. Woolrich and Filson, based in rainier parts of the US, make a lot of money from selling wool and waxed cotton garments. A wool Mackinaw cruiser will keep you warm, if damp, in heavy rain. A tin cloth coat will keep you dry from rain, but it would have me sweating in a matter of minutes.

The trademarked cloth known as Ventile is best for immersion suits and sub-zero conditions, as we know. But in the temperate climate of the UK it's a good breathable alternative to unnatural fibres.

 

[BellyTank]

This thread is brilliant indeed- it is creating a very useful discussion;
asking and answering important questions.
Even though we are all participating in this thread about "Ventile",
we have quite diverse viewpoints- mine is obviously somewhat lighter
on the practicalities than Dudleydoright's and Mr.Johnson's and heavier on the aesthetic angle. I, for one, am enjoying the learning.


B
T

 

[pipvh]

Not to mention the fact that birdwatching in the British climate often amounts to a pretty rigorous hydrostatic-head test in and of itself!

 

[Dudleydoright]

This thread is brilliant indeed- it is creating a very useful discussion;
asking and answering important questions.
Even though we are all participating in this thread about "Ventile",
we have quite diverse viewpoints- mine is obviously somewhat lighter
on the practicalities than Dudleydoright's and Mr.Johnson's and heavier on the aesthetic angle. I, for one, am enjoying the learning.
B
T

I too am enjoying this immensely and learning lots to boot. It is suprising how subjective this subject of outdoor kit is. And I thought the flight jacket lot were barmy

I'd like to think I am being objective in my ratioanle for choosing what I wear and when and why but the truth is that I am affected by the non quantifiable things that make me up as an individual. I like the idea of natural fabrics. I like the idea of the simple Innuit anorak and am very interested in the ethnic aspects of thos who made their home the North. I have small carvings, a Pang hat or two and CDs of the nasal singing the Innu do. I like their general air and friendliness. I feel sorry for how we madde them live in artificial communities and take up Christianity. I, BT, also have an aesthetic dimension

We are all influenced by our own preferences.

It is interesting too that most of us who favour the old fashioned things remember them as kids and went through teh man-made stuff before coming back to the natural............

Rob, I know you you have been leg pulling us Brits and I'm laughing at your humourous perceptions and stereotypes as much as laughing at some of the little grains of truth in it. Keep it coming !!

I also like the way our thread is evolving and what it is covering.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[BellyTank]

A book, on simple indigenous clothing types, including Anoraks.

The simple clothing angle-
2 years ago, I photographed some pages from a book entitled,
"Making Simple Clothing"(now out of print),all the Anorak pages.
which outlines many different, traditional indigenous clothing types,
one of which is the Anorak(Greenland, etc). It seems pertinent now,
more than ever, to extract these photos and present them.
Not quite yet, I'll need to find the camera and charge it up.

But until I do, here's the book information:

ISBN 071362051x
Making Simple Clothes
(Ida Hamre and Hanne Meedom)

This book turns up now and again but gets expensive.

Please stand by...

B
T

 

[nobodyspecial]

The Rainshed sells a pattern for a cagoule which, if shortened, would make a servicable anorak pattern. Click on the pattens tab, then rainshed patterns at top and scroll down.
http://www.therainshed.com/

In regard to modern fabrics, I do believe they perform better as far as being breathable in a less humid enviornment such as the western US mountains versus the more humid midwestern US. The greater the difference in humidity between inside the jacket and the outside air seem to help the water vapor escape. That's been my experience in any event.

 

[gfirob]

Mr. Johnson
Sorry to have ruffled your (well dressed) feathers, but I thought I was being light hearted. And it seems that I did understand what you said, you just didn't think the jackets were uncomfortable, provably because you are British.

(Only kidding).

Keep calm and carry on.

I think this is a great thread and I like to learn about the style and material of older gear. I mentioned Amundsen's learning from the eskimos because he wore traditional eskimo anoraks (without the traditional tail) in raindeer skin and he by-God stayed warm. Scott and Shackletons men all wore separate hats or knit helmets or similar headgear rather than hoods for the most part and rarely fur.

But I wonder if we are talking about nostalgia here or genuinely effective garments. In a fully modern sense, are they effective? It seems to me that if you are damp, you are damp. I might be a particularly bad contributor to this since I have never worn Ventile garments, but happily, ignorance has never kept me silent before...

I am very glad that there are so many here that really do know this stuff. Great to learn.

Anyway, great thread. Keep it coming.

Again, Mr. Johnson, sorry to have misquoted or misunderstood you.

Rob

 

[Creeping Past]

I mentioned Amundsen's learning from the eskimos because he wore traditional eskimo anoraks (without the traditional tail) in raindeer skin and he by-God stayed warm. Scott and Shackletons men all wore separate hats or knit helmets or similar headgear rather than hoods for the most part and rarely fur.

That was a lesson learnt by the early polar explorers, Brits and otherwise, that seems to have passed by Scott and his expedition. Then again, if you're mounting a fully equipped self-contained expedition from the British Isles, you'll probably forego kit made from caribou or reindeer for obvious reasons. We've got plenty of seals, though, but no traditional garb that I know of that uses their skins, which is a shame and an oversight in my view. I'll cut this bit short because we're wandering into the territory of the Antarctic gear thread.

But I wonder if we are talking about nostalgia here or genuinely effective garments. In a fully modern sense, are they effective?

Both, as many contributors have stated quite fully throughout this and other related threads. And yes to answer the second part of that question, which is a loaded question, if not a straw man. I sense you're presupposing that modern equates to what you find acceptable and what's generally regarded as acceptable, with no specifics. Please define "fully modern" with regard to clothing.

 

[BellyTank]

Then again, if you're mounting a fully equipped self-contained expedition from the British Isles, you'll probably forgo kit made from caribou or reindeer for obvious reasons. We've got plenty of seals, though, but no traditional garb that I know of that uses their skins, which is a shame and an oversight in my view.

Slightly OT from the thread but just to comment on this-
When I was living in Denmark, a couple of years ago sealskin Anoraks/Parkas
were very popular winter-wear but they were at the fashion end and ladies-wear. I really wonder now, how warm they are-
the sealskin garments. Denmark has a relationship with Greenland, so this is why I have seen them in DK but not here in Sweden.
So- at least, sealskin "traditional-stlye" clothing can be found in the European market.


B
T

 

[Creeping Past]

Slightly OT from the thread but just to comment on this-
When I was living in Denmark, a couple of years ago sealskin Anoraks/Parkas
were very popular winter-wear but they were at the fashion end and ladies-wear. I really wonder now, how warm they are-
the sealskin garments. Denmark has a relationship with Greenland, so this is why I have seen them in DK but not here in Sweden.
So- at least, sealskin "traditional-stlye" clothing can be found in the European market.

B
T

That's interesting. but I bet they're not as good as this one.

I wonder if seal garments made it here to the UK during the time of the Danelaw. Vikings used seal.

I'd wear seal.

 

[BellyTank]

And the rest!

B
T

 

[Inusuit]

I'm a wool and canvas sort of guy. My go-to wet weather parka is a Filson waxed cotton rain coat. I'm intrigued by this garment from Duluth Pack, but probably not something I'd use much.

http://duluthpack.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Anorak

 

[norton]

I'm a wool and canvas sort of guy. My go-to wet weather parka is a Filson waxed cotton rain coat. I'm intrigued by this garment from Duluth Pack, but probably not something I'd use much.

http://duluthpack.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Anorak

Duluth pack makes great packs so I'm sure its well made. I have one of their canoe packs and a briefcase. It looks like it would be a perfect outer layer as long as temperatures were sure to stay below freezing. I wouldn't want it rely on it in a freezing rain though.

 

[Fletch]

I've learned quite a bit too - among other things the answer to my original question, albeit indirectly:
q. Why isn't Ventile better known in the US?
a. Because it was never military issue here.

 

[gfirob]

Creeping past, you make a good point in that I might be setting up a strawman with this comment, though actually it comes from my own ignorance as someone who has no experience wearing or even knowing anything about this fabric prior to reading this thread. And I think there is some nostalgia in this discussion to which I am immune because of the aforementioned ignorance—but of course nostalgia is the engine that drives much of the Fedora Lounge anyway so there is nothing wrong with that at all.

I am not a champion of “modern” fabric any more than the next guy (or I would not spend all this money on heavy, expensive Scottish jackets that are so uncomfortable to wear when you take them out of the box) but I just thought that a lot of imprecise information seemed to be presented here about Ventile. Its weather proof, except when its not, and so forth. It seems as if it would be ideal except in conditions of pouring rain.

A lot of the commentary here seems to refer to testing and scientific assement of the fabric, but I’m having a hard time really understanding just what its characteristics are that would make it preferable to goretex (in purely functional terms, nostalgia or just fondness aside).

But again, I appreciate and respect the experience and knowledge of the posters here on the subject and I apologize if my life-long nature as a smart ass has obscured that.

As a side note, my wife bought a seal-skin parka in Copenhagen a few years ago (they are illegal in the States) and it is tremendously warm, so warm that it can only be warn in serious winter weather. She has never tried wearing it in a kayak while hinting polar bears though, and it might have dampness issues in that case.

Finally, it is true that if Ventile had been issued by the US military, it would probably be more widely known here, though I suspect it is more likely that its cost and limited production meant that it was never going to be effectively distributed in this huge market. That, and the relative shortage of bird watchers here…

Rob

 

[Dudleydoright]

Fletch, Rob,
Milissue ventile might be but the only items that it has ever been used in are immersion suits and the inner lining material in the RAF Mk 3 cold weather jacket and trousers plus a cold weather cap and a couple of amazing parkas that were VERY limited issue and too heavy and warm of general active use. Ventile is Hardly common or even well known even in the military in the UK !! It is better known amongst those of us who recall it's use back in the day or came across is due to it's use by the British Antarctic Survey. It is still not generally known by most outdoors people (although the Internet & sites like this have made it better known though more misunderstood !).
The patents made to the manufacturer in WW2 ensured that it wasn't copied and as a limited use material, one mill always cooed with demand even if at times the demands of either the military or BAS meant that regular availability could be too patchy / 'unreliable' for larger- scale use.
Rob, re-read some of the earlier posts. I have clearly stated ventiles' limitations and to say 'weatherproof except when it's not' is an unfair jibe at those of us who have posted that weatherproof ventile might be but WATERPROOF it sure isn't. Let's not confuse terms here buddy
I keep saying that there's no one outer for all occassions. Man made or natural .cheers
Dave

 

[gfirob]

Dave
I did re-read the thread and I also read the Vintile section in the Dan Robertson Workshop book that someone suggested and I think I am gaining an understanding the whole thing . You were pretty clear in your post, thanks.

The description in Robertson’s book pretty much agrees with most of what is being written by those of you who have actually used this stuff, and it sounds pretty attractive.

I guess initially it seem inconceivable to me that such an extraordinary fabric would not have been in wide use here in the States, if it was so effective. In fact, if Americans didn’t invent it, how good could it be?

Well, it may be that I had my head up my a** in this case (not the first time). Robertson is very demanding in his estimation of the fabric and its ability to breath and remain waterproof and his description of its history is very interesting. He also says (in 1989):

“Ventile is the most under exploited fabric for outdoor clothing (and other items). It is so typical of Britain to produce a wonder fabric and then not to develop and exploit it.”

Now, I won’t comment on Mr. Robertson’s obvious personal problem with the British, but that aside, perhaps it is not so surprising that this wonder fabric never made a mark over here where we all sweat under synthetics and are proud of it...

So I’m going to keep my eye out for a Ventile garment I can afford to try it out. I think perhaps the British aversion to comfort (as I described it in good humor) is not that different from that of my own father—who grew up camping in the west, in the Sierra Nevada mountains. He and his enthusiastic embracing of the damp and cold may be one of the reasons I prefer comfort in the out of doors…

I did work in Antarctica in parallel to a British unit and their producer’s idea of the care and feeding of their crew was quite different than mine (but that is a story from another thread).

Thanks again for introducing me to this interesting fabric.

rob

 

[Fletch]

The description in Robertson’s book pretty much agrees with most of what is being written by those of you who have actually used this stuff, and it sounds pretty attractive.

I guess initially it seem inconceivable to me that such an extraordinary fabric would not have been in wide use here in the States, if it was so effective. In fact, if Americans didn’t invent it, how good could it be?

Well, it may be that I had my head up my a** in this case (not the first time). Robertson is very demanding in his estimation of the fabric and its ability to breath and remain waterproof and his description of its history is very interesting. He also says (in 1989):

“Ventile is the most under exploited fabric for outdoor clothing (and other items). It is so typical of Britain to produce a wonder fabric and then not to develop and exploit it.”

Now, I won’t comment on Mr. Robertson’s obvious personal problem with the British, but that aside, perhaps it is not so surprising that this wonder fabric never made a mark over here where we all sweat under synthetics and are proud of it...

That and it's cotton. And cotton can kill you.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Fletch,
We've already covered that 'cotton kills' stuff and we all pretty much agreed that that depends a lot on climate , activity level and where in the layering system it is. Read up the thread a ways ........
Dave