Ventile

[BellyTank]

Dudleydoright-
I mentioned that French Anorak because someone, somwhere,
spoke of a French/British/special forces anorak connection.
Now what was it?


B
T

 

[Dudleydoright]

I appreciate that BT. Just wondering in what way saying that you had one contributed to that discussion ?

You know, : thoughts and experiences on them ..... opinions etc....

Other than telling us you have had or have EVERY type of anorak ever made

Dave

 

[Dudleydoright]

Just did some water(proof) testing...

The WW2 British Windproof smocks, which are not the actual speckled beige cloth but a cotton gaberdine(I have previously referred to it as cotton twill), one khaki, one OD/green- both suck the water up instantly.

Are you implying that the peppered ones are not WW2 or that you don't have one to test BT ?

Thinks to oneself that this could get 'interesting' ....

Any vintage untreated cotton garment will suck up water like a sponge. That's why the drill material ones were superceded by the 'peppered' & camo ones ones so quickly as they weighed less when wet.

Dave

 

[BellyTank]

I was just wondering how they would cope with water...
No, I was not trying to say that the "peppered" ones were not WW2-
bad grammar, maybe that was and referring, I think, to my prior poste, where I mentioned my WW2 examples.

Re- the French, post-war anorak: I had one, wore it quite a bit and I liked it.
It did smell quite rubbery, though.

I have and have had quite a few different anoraks but I'm sure you have
more

But when I mentioned "mentioning" the French anorak, I was referring to the one I supplied photos of,
not the post-war type- and wondering what the connection was that was hinted at.
I think we were posting at the same time and some sense was lost.

Confused?

Sorry for not contributing with more anorak experiences...


B
T

 

[nobodyspecial]

From a design standpoint, I think these are near perfect, though I would get rid of the velcro in favor of brass snaps.
http://www.wintergreennorthernwear....ory_id=114&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=22107

Wintergreen makes a half zip version as well which is my preference. Some years ago they made these in natural fibers as well, cotton canvas similar to Empire Canvas anoraks. A ventile version would be perfect, but too much to dream about.

 

[Fletch]

Now I need to make a Ventile Anorak!

Why? You already are one. lol

 

[BellyTank]

1)You think we're not familiar with that term..?
2)I'm(R) not made of Ventile(R).

B
T(R)

 

[BellyTank]

From a design standpoint, I think these are near perfect, though I would get rid of the velcro in favor of brass snaps.
http://www.wintergreennorthernwear....ory_id=114&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=22107

Wintergreen makes a half zip version as well which is my preference. Some years ago they made these in natural fibers as well, cotton canvas similar to Empire Canvas anoraks. A ventile version would be perfect, but too much to dream about.

Dream?
Ventile cloth is freely available- you could make your own design for
less than the cost of a "proprietary" one.

I will make one soon.
There are some good products out there, which probably perform well
but I don't like any of them.


B
T

 

[nobodyspecial]

I've thought of sewing my own anorak from time to time, but can't seem to make the time. I've got a few labor-of-love restoration projects which I should complete before starting something new.

 

[pipvh]

The Bobby

My ideal anorak is basically this one, as already posted on the Pitt/Tibet thread by Mr Johnson. Bobby Sportswear:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-M-VENTILE-CLOTH-ENGLISH-MOUNTAIN-PARKA-ANORAK_W0QQitemZ390145036329QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad674d029

It's dead simple, classic - I even like the colour. Not sure that it's worth $350, however. But this is the one I will get someone to copy for me at some point. In Ventile(R), of course. Though if it will have the panache of the original 'Bobby,' only time will tell...

 

[Dudleydoright]

I wondered when Wintergreen would crop up They are good - if a little expensive for what is basically a supplex jacket. I suppose that the sewing on of the brading must contribute to that. Certainly they work fine in sub-zero temperatures.
They were used on the Schurke / Steger North Pole Exp'n back in the early-mid 80's. Mrs Steger made the mukluks (as she did for the Transantarctic Expedition of '89/'90). North Face made the clothing for that Expd and, Mr BT, I have had two of the anoraks and two of the sold-to-the-public zip fronted jackets The anorak was perhaps the best design I've ever come across but in goretex ? No sir, they had to go

That ventile oneon Ebay was sweet. I suppose the buyer could, if he were the enterprising type, get patterns made and market it. Certainly the price was no more than a modern-made ventile jacket with much more exclusivity. We'll be sure to know him if we see him wearing it LOL

I have often thought about doing a sewing class and learning how to make my own anoraks. I used to make and sell kids walking harnesses made out of nylon climbing webbing when I was in Canada. Sold a couple of dozen and could have sold loads more but I got scared once I started selling to friends of friends about litigation if something broke. I'm no 'Oshkosh' or 'Mothercare'. Clothing demands different skills though.

And, yes, ventile cloth is reasonably available. But expensive. Where you can win is making the garment yourself. 'Keep it simple stupid!' as Kelly Johnson once said.

Dave

 

[nobodyspecial]

Was the brand Bobby well known in England or was this a run of the mill piece?

 

[Dudleydoright]

'Fraid I can't answer that one as being only a 'mere' 46 years of age and having spent a good part of my childhood as a £10 pom in Australia, I can only say that I have never, personally, come across the name before.

I do have an old 1970's Blacks Outdoor catalogue. I'll scan that and post that as they have ventile anoraks I'm sure.

Mr Johnson ????

Dave

 

[nobodyspecial]

I've got one of the Wintergreen wool coats, but not the nylon anorak. You are correct that the nylon anoraks are too expensive for what you are getting. All the garments are still made locally in Ely so in addition to the trim work you are paying US wages rather than third world wages.

Years ago when I was into making fleece garments I made an oversized anorak from windproof fleece. The garment turned out very well and I added similar trim to the Wintergreen jackets. Sewing the trim is a pain in the assets.

 

[gfirob]

What am I missing?

At the risk of sounding stupid, I have been following this discussion about Ventile with some interest, since I have never heard of it and I like the sound of a natural fiber with these properties. But I am surprised that the fact that the fabric seems not actually to be waterproof and is terribly expensive besides doesn’t seem to alter its popularity here. 265 British pounds for a jacket used for bird watching? $430?

If I understand these posts, one should just live with being damp. In our work we often have to stand around in the rain or work in the rain. Everybody I know carefully selects rain suits that will keep them dry, really dry and yet breath enough so they don’t sweat. That includes waterproof boot covers and gloves that don’t soak up water. Why put up with being damp? Who wants to be damp? Damp wool can surely keep you warm, but its still damp.

A big lesson that Amundsen learned from the Eskimos was “Don’t get damp.” Its one of the reasons he beat Scott to the pole (though not a very big reason).

I wonder if this fits into a theory I have about English people being comfort-averse. I first came upon this theory after spending two weeks banging around east Africa in an old Landrover and thinking “who designed these seats anyway?”

I think someone on this forum made the comment regarding people who tried to break in their Aero jackets through artificial means, that one should simply wear them and be uncomfortable in them until they were broken in (however long that might take). Stiff upper lip and all that. Keep calm and carry on…

It maybe that it is just that Americans are comfort obsessed (give me a truck with big comfortable seats if I have to drive around on bad roads). We do have big butts and like our seats comfortable (just like the Germans).

What am I missing here? Help me out.

Rob

 

[Dudleydoright]

Hey Rob,

Funny post lol

Where to start - especially as I'm part Brit, part Aussie and part Cannuck :eusa_doh:

When I talk about being damp, I'm talking about climate and activity levels. You are bang on about not getting damp in very cold conditions. It will kill. But in very cold temps, ventile doesn't let water in as there is no free water. It does let body moisture out. But in the Arctic / Antarctic, you need to be very careful you pace yourself such that you don't get sweaty. You do that by changing your layers and watching how hard you are working. Of course you can work much harder in freezing temps than in the relatively warm British climate so you can actually work a lot harder physically in the cold than in the warm. But of course, I'm saying this to the general public as you are already aware of this. You also no doubt know that goretex doesn't work in very cold temps as the moisture it is trying to let out through the membrane pores actually freezes before it gets out and freezes to the inside of the jacket.

The acceptance of being damp is a reference to more moderate conditions. In the UK for example, it is relatively warm, frequently wet and if hoofing about the hills with a pack on, nothing is going to keep you dry from sweat. My personal opinion is that some level of 'discomfort' is part of the outdoor experience. If you don't want to sweat - stay on the couch ! But there is a grain of truth in that we Brits don't mind a little pain. Perhaps also the psyche of those in the Colonies has always been one of working to improve your lot and so this is carried on now in trying to make everything perfect. Having been a soldier many years ago, I can tell you that I have a VERY wide comfort range and am comfortable in conditions or situations that make others very uncomfortable or stressed. I don't even notice the damp LOL

Ventile is expensive but will keep you dry in wet conditions if it is proofed and if your level of acticity is that of birdwatching or hanging about trying to get a scoop then you aren't going to work up a sweat. It has no rustle noise to speak of. And like the Wintergreen garments, it is made and assembled in a First World country (the UK) by small companies. The ventile isn't much more expensive than the supplex kit of Wintergreen really. All your Goretex kit is made in the Far East with cheap labour and high production numbers. The relatively simple Transantarctic Expd anoraks cost over $600 each to make back in 1987 as they were made in small numbers in the States.

Having expensive things that are not common is something people all over the world do - if they can afford it. If you are wealthy, do you buy a KIA car made in Korea or a Porsche. If you are a reporter, do you put your camera kit in a plastic bag or a Billingham Bag ? Do you go cheap and replace frequently or expensive and get quality and durability. These are all personal choices - there is no right way. Is that cool or what ?

Knowing what you want to use kit for and knowing what is out there and how it performs is the key. It's a bit of a minefield.

Does that explain where I was coming from adequately ??

Oh, you're right about Land Rovers - they're Shi'ite

Cheers,
Dave

 

[pipvh]

Another explanation for the British penchant for putting up with discomfort is that most people of my generation (I'm 46) had dads who did National Service and never forgot hiking up Snowdon in winter dressed in fatigues. Asking for hi-tech hiking gear (such as it was in the 70s) from such a dad would get you a raised eyebrow and a trip to the army surplus shop.

Most of my aversion to modern fabrics wasn't won on the front lines of British birdwatching, though, but in Vermont winters, where it does get bloody cold. When I first arrived I bought into the whole Thinsulate/Goretex/etc thing - all the glossy labels that festoon new gear, basically - but after my first winter I ditched it all and used layers of natural fiber, because I couldn't stand being soaked from the inside, and reeking of sweat. Johnson Woolen Mills and Filson - what everyone wore up until 20 years ago - still performed better than the modern stuff. All those glossy labels do help sell clothes, of course...

I'm not talking life and death here, though, or survival inside the Arctic Circle or the South Pole, of which I have absolutely NO experience.

 

[Hal]

...I'm talking about climate and activity levels...Knowing what you want to use kit for and knowing what is out there and how it performs is the key.

Absolutely right - also, the length of time one is outside needs consideration when choosing outdoor clothing.

In the UK for example, it is relatively warm, frequently wet and if hoofing about the hills with a pack on, nothing is going to keep you dry from sweat. My personal opinion is that some level of 'discomfort' is part of the outdoor experience...there is a grain of truth in that we Brits don't mind a little pain.

Another explanation for the British penchant for putting up with discomfort is that most people of my generation (I'm 46) had dads who did National Service and never forgot hiking up Snowdon in winter dressed in fatigues. Asking for hi-tech hiking gear (such as it was in the 70s) from such a dad would get you a raised eyebrow and a trip to the army surplus shop.

I am of the National Service generation (though it was abolished while I was at university, so I escaped) and can remember, when I first started hill-walking more than 50 years ago, being recommended NOT to wear completely waterproof gear because of the sweating problem. Waterproof nylon "cagoules" and overtrousers appeared around 1961. The deaths of several Scouts on the British mountains in the early 1960s was the occasion when the need for fully waterproof clothing became "officially" recommended. Before then, "showerproof" cotton fabrics such as the fatigues mentioned above were standard outer gear, Grenfell cloth and Ventile being the "top-of-the-range" versions of that cloth.

 

[BellyTank]

And of course- this forum is vintage/traditional biased.
So- any potential minor discomfort in outdoor pursuits, is,
perhaps balanced by the enjoyment of the natural cloths, traditional,
simple design- the satisfaction of the "old school" aesthetic.

This "Ventile" thread is a relative of the "Historic Hillwalking" thread-
maybe a read-through of that thread would make things seem slightly more sensible.


B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

Should we be surprised that protective fabrics developed in the 1970s and later with huge R&D budgets can outperform a fabric developed in 1942 to be produced under wartime conditions with a commonly available material?

As an aside, I have just examined the results of the hydrostatic head experiment I mentioned further up the thread, where I was testing a sample of a gabardine cotton (originally developed in 1924) against a sample of Ventile(R) developed in 1942. I messed up the experiment by leaving the 1924 material in the rig twice as long as the Ventile(R). I blame Baron Kurtz for dragging me around the vintage cloth-pots of Brick Lane.

The 1924 cloth (begins with G) still outperformed the Ventile(R) in terms of water resistance. Interesting, as I understand that there are plans to replicate this cloth again.

I agree with Hal (who posts too rarely) having shared his some of his experiences. 'Received wisdom' about outdoor gear (both military and leisure) in the 1960s and before was that it was OK to be wet, provided you were warm - which you invariably are in a mild climate when exerting yourself. Those PU-proofed nylon anoraks and cagoules of the 1960s were awful. A definite 'step back' from proofed cottons in terms of vapour permeability.

I still remember (and repeat) my father's rebuke when as a lad I would complain about being soaked on top of some rain-swept peak, ' You won't melt, you're not made of sugar!'. The echoes of this rebuke make it impossible for me (and, I suspect a lot of other British walkers of my generation) to complain about being damp outdoors.