Ventile

[H.Johnson]

Many people (including some manufacturers) treat Ventile(R) and other cotton fabrics with an extra proofer to enable them to shed surface water more readily. Some people say this inhibits the intended method of forming a barrier by expansion of the threads. I don't know, because I haven't carried out comparative tests of proofed and unproofed Ventile(R). I never believe any claim I haven't tested myself. Maybe the people at Leeds Uni. have done such a test.

I have a sample of cloth woven by a (very) traditional Lancashire weaver to a design more than fifty years older than Ventile(R) that is on the hydrostatic test rig at work as I type this. By tomorrow I should know if it outperforms Ventile(R) in the test. I suspect (owning a jacket made from it) that it will... typical Ventile isn't the best fabric for the British climate. Too wet and not cold enough for it, I think.

An interesting point - the family firm that wove the cloth mentioned above offered to produce windproof cloth for the Ministry of Supply in WW2, submitted samples and was made to shut down for the duration of the war 'due to the shortage of cotton!' Then the Shirley Institute just down the road came out with Ventile(R).

The same firm offered cloth for the 1952-3 Everest expedition, which was again rejected in favour of a man-made fibre mixture specified by the RAE, Farnborough. They thought the Government was against them...surely not???

One thing I've just found to ponder on... speaking to a friend who is a firefighter, he tells me that their hoses are made of some kind of natural woven cloth. Now THAT would have to be waterproof! I wonder what they are made of?

 

[Peacoat]

Just because it says "UK" where we are from doesn't mean we've only ever been here all along !!

Dudley, I love it!

 

[nobodyspecial]

Empire Canvas Works is currently experimenting with ventile for use in it's products, they just received fabric samples this past week and working on designs at the moment.

The gold standard for ventile coats made in the US was made by Synergy Works during the 1970's, very expensive $160.00 in 1978, but by all accounts a whale of a coat.

Ventile, being cotton, will eventually start to leak, especially when backpacking with pack straps pressing hard against the fabric. Adding a lining didn't help since you have wet fabric against wet fabric. What made Synergy Works coat unique was the upper third of the coat was made of mutiple layers; outer shell of ventile, layer of mesh, second layer of ventile, second layer of mesh and finally a nylon lining. Sweat can still pass through the various layers and yet rain will have a hard time penetrating all the way through even while carrying a pack. This was a quite a garment, made in eight sizes so you are guaranteed a good fit.

I would love to get my hands on one of these coats, but in a decade I have yet to see one on ebay.

The downside beyond the cost is the coat weighed 2.8 pounds. For rainwear you can easily find a coat weighing under one pound which will shed rain equally as well.

 

[Dudleydoright]

As I understand things (and I stand to be corrected :eusa_doh: ) Ventile is always pre-proofed.

All of the garments I've had over the years had a sheen to them at first which shed water. The fibres also seemed to be thinner and more tightly woven at first than with use. My original vintage BAS suit eventually became much more flexible and the fibres almost seemed to become less tight giving the suit the appearance of a normal tightly-woven cotton. It also then started to absorb water until the fibres swelled. This meant that I got DAMP rather than soaked. As the suit got most use in Canada in winter, this was only a problem if I didn't brush the snow off myself when near the camping stove or fire. I could, of course have re-proofed it ! This suit was also (like my orange ones) the heaviest-weight Ventile, the L24.

The lighter-weight L19 garments I've had tend to get soft and do tend to transmit water a little more. To be perfectly honest, as I'm usually working hard physically when wearing it, I'm pretty wet from sweat anyways so accept that being damp is just one of those things I'm ok with. The trick is to have dry clothing or extra layers to put on when stopping or making camp. I cannot recommend wool enough as it packs smaller than fleece and several layers can be worn for the same thickness as fleece/Paramo type garments and it NEVER carries your body odour. Synthetics always end up smelling like you've worn them for weeks once your body heat gets them going - even as early as a couple of washes old.

I can't stress enough that Ventile's name was gained at a time when there weren't any real substitutes and certainly well before any synthetic, goretex type materials. Ventile has it's drawbacks but I accept them as part of the experience much as I accept my friends for their good and bad points and just deal with it.

There is no magic material for ALL climatic conditions

Cheers,
Dave

 

[number6]

Short Ventile jackets

Hope this is ok and not considered off topic , BAS jackets are short for one reason , the need to wear a safety harness when travelling in dangerous areas either on Skidoo or on foot.Long jackets get in the way of fitting the harness correctly.

 

[H.Johnson]

Dave,

I don't think you need correction - the current trade mark holders for Ventile(R) recommend Granger's products for re-treatment.

I agree. In my experience, Ventile-type fabrics degrade over time and with use. I think that this is because of their plain weave. Tightly-woven drills and twills appear (based on using both types of fabric for 50-odd years) to be more durable with wear. This is inspite of vendors' statements about the durability of Ventile(R) garments. Grenfell cloth, for instance, holds its weave and 'crispness' better than Ventile(R), weight for weight. I can only say what I know.

I think that the desire among walkers (I'm talking UK here) to remain completely dry outdoors is a fairly recent thing. It used to be accepted that if it rained you became at least damp, and the ability of a garment to dry out after being wet was more important than keeping its wearer absolutely dry under all conditions. Maybe the recent artificial membrane fabrics have raised peoples' expectations. I like tradition.

As you point out, IMO you'll never be dry wearing Ventile(R) unless you have some 'system' underneath it. That's not what it's about. Wool under Ventile keeps the wearer warm when damp. That's OK for me.

Ventile's main 'waterproof' competitors (late 1940s and 1950s) were things like oilskin, Macintosh fabric, waxproof cotton and Grenfell cloth. PU-proofed nylon came in the 1960s. All these have their plus and minus points, I think, but IMO they would keep you as dry as Ventile(R) but not be so permeable. This is strange, as permeability (Ventile(R) is usually rated at around 95%) wasn't in the original specification!

As I understand things (and I stand to be corrected :eusa_doh: ) Ventile is always pre-proofed.

All of the garments I've had over the years had a sheen to them at first which shed water. The fibres also seemed to be thinner and more tightly woven at first than with use. My original vintage BAS suit eventually became much more flexible and the fibres almost seemed to become less tight giving the suit the appearance of a normal tightly-woven cotton. It also then started to absorb water until the fibres swelled. This meant that I got DAMP rather than soaked. As the suit got most use in Canada in winter, this was only a problem if I didn't brush the snow off myself when near the camping stove or fire. I could, of course have re-proofed it ! This suit was also (like my orange ones) the heaviest-weight Ventile, the L24.

The lighter-weight L19 garments I've had tend to get soft and do tend to transmit water a little more. To be perfectly honest, as I'm usually working hard physically when wearing it, I'm pretty wet from sweat anyways so accept that being damp is just one of those things I'm ok with. The trick is to have dry clothing or extra layers to put on when stopping or making camp. I cannot recommend wool enough as it packs smaller than fleece and several layers can be worn for the same thickness as fleece/Paramo type garments and it NEVER carries your body odour. Synthetics always end up smelling like you've worn them for weeks once your body heat gets them going - even as early as a couple of washes old.

I can't stress enough that Ventile's name was gained at a time when there weren't any real substitutes and certainly well before any synthetic, goretex type materials. Ventile has it's drawbacks but I accept them as part of the experience much as I accept my friends for their good and bad points and just deal with it.

There is no magic material for ALL climatic conditions

Cheers,
Dave

 

[BellyTank]

...In my experience, Ventile-type fabrics degrade over time and with use. I think that this is because of their plain weave. Tightly-woven drills and twills appear (based on using both types of fabric for 50-odd years) to be more durable with wear.

So- speaking of plain weave ventile...
...the so-called gaberdine "ventile"?
Very, very fine twill weave, of course,
reminiscent of the WW2 drab smock/trou, windproof.
Marketed as Ventile, so I guess it is Ventile..?
You know the one of which I speak.
Dark olive green- I had a sample a while back.
Nice.

What do you know, Mr. Johnson?


B
T

 

[nobodyspecial]

There is no magic material for ALL climatic conditions

That is quite right, it's all a tradeoff. The marketing folks at gore and the like have convinced the masses that their products will be as waterproof and breathable as human skin. Not the case. Warm and a bit damp are just fine and that's about as well as you can do.

Last night I scanned a couple of Synergy Works catalog pages for Kevin at Empire Canvas, these describe the ventile coat and the develpment process. They scans are here.

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/meganandrusty/synergy works/

 

[Dudleydoright]

Nobodyspecial,
Thanks for the scans. Interesting.
I've heard a lot about that Synergy parka. Having heard a little more here I have to say that whilst it might be some kind of holy grail jacket to many, I personally prefer much more simple designs. The idea of two layer ventile is bad enough for me as it becomes a much heavier garment and takes a LOT longer to dry, but adding in layers of mesh etc. A very fussy jacket indeed.

Two layers of ventile would be a good idea if the two layers were two seperate garments, say a windshirt over a wool baselayer and topped with a ventile jacket. And , of course, a two-layer jacket breathes a lot less.

I do think that Goretex had one hellova good marketing campaign and it does have it's place but I think also that most folk get tricked into the latest 'thang' and that outdoors gear is as much a victim of fashion and this years' model as any haute couture clothing on a catwalk. Shame.

I'm a simple guy. I like simple things. If it ain't broke - don't fix it. But that's just me and I'm not against any differing views. There's room for us all

Dave

 

[H.Johnson]

Is that from Points North? Reminiscent of the LATE WW2 smock and trousers, yes. As an aside, I have an 1940s civilian anorak in Ventile-type cloth and it seems to be an even finer weave than, say, L19. I don't know whether this would be consistently the case. The only problem with a very fine weave is, of course, wear.

Ventile(R) looks like very a fine and crisp Oxford -weave shirting material with an approximate 3:1 warp to weft ratio and very long spun fibres. It can be a bit 'slubby' sometimes. Personally, although I have tried to examine as much of the cloth as I can, I couldn't swear to identify real Ventile(R) 'each time, every time', even under magnification. So I tend not to believe that something is made from Ventile unless it has the official label. You know, like Harris Tweed... I'm not sure about the Points North stuff, but it looks and feels good to me.

The current licence holder (Talbots in Chorley) uses the company style 'Ventile Fabrics', so I'm not sure if that means that any type of cloth they wove could be called 'Ventile(R)'.

So- speaking of plain weave ventile...
...the so-called gaberdine "ventile"?
Very, very fine twill weave, of course,
reminiscent of the WW2 drab smock/trou, windproof.
Marketed as Ventile, so I guess it is Ventile..?
You know the one of which I speak.
Dark olive green- I had a sample a while back.
Nice.

What do you know, Mr. Johnson?


B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

Ha! Great minds think alike! I am currently working on a plain overhead windshirt in a Ventile-like fabric (see BTs posting below) that I intend to wear underneath my newly-created (and favourite) cadet windproof smock. With the knit cuffs (on the smock) snugged over the inner shirt and the neck zipped it should be as good as a two layer smock, but more versatile.

I'll let you know how it serves.

.
<SNIP>
Two layers of ventile would be a good idea if the two layers were two seperate garments, say a windshirt over a wool baselayer and topped with a ventile jacket. And , of course, a two-layer jacket breathes a lot less.
<SNIP>

 

[norton]

After checking out the Antartic thread I've decided that ventile is the way to go when I can replace my Wiggy's parka shell. But now I need to come up with the $400.:cry:

 

[nobodyspecial]

Better photos of the Synergy Works coat is at the bottom of this page from a Japanese collector.
http://monoblog.555nat.com/?cid=49248

What made that particular jacket so unusual was that nothing else was made with nearly that attention to detail which also explains the high cost. Nearly every other ventile jacket was simply two layers of fabric, made much the same was a standard mountain parka of the day using 60/40 cloth or 65/35 cloth. I've seen ventile parkas made by Snow Lion which had a layer of mesh in the shoulders similar to the Synergy Works product, but not redundant multiple layers.

As I said before, it's all a trade off. I prefer the feel and would rather wear natural fibers. Anything will soak through over time, the big advantage with gore tex, event and the like is that jackets are lighter weight and they will dry sooner after the rain stops. If I am out on a multi day backpacking trip I'd take my event jacket every time, a winter snowshoe trek- probably my empire canvas works anorak, a dayhike in on a cool, drizzly fall day probably one of my mountain parkas.

 

[pipvh]

I think that the desire among walkers (I'm talking UK here) to remain completely dry outdoors is a fairly recent thing. It used to be accepted that if it rained you became at least damp

Yes, it's completely unrealistic. If you have to be dry you want a roof, not a jacket. The problem I've always had with modern fabrics is that, while they do keep out the rain to a great extent, you're soaked through with your own sweat anyway. I distinctly remember, even as a kid, much preferring the way heavy rain gradually soaked through my old German army parka to what happened when it found its way down the neck of a vile nylon Millets kagoule I briefly owned (ah, the horizontal Dartmoor rains of yesteryear...).

 

[BellyTank]

Design an Anorak-

(Hi-jacking?)
So-
-we know a little about Ventile(R) and I guess, ventile-like cloths
and their advantages and shortcomings...

Now- to design an Anorak, for, shall we say, "normal use"- for hillwalking,
hiking, etc.- nothing too demanding, or specialized- where a garment that is definitely windproof and "occasionally" shower-proof is desired, in this traditional, cotton cloth...

Where to start- what features to include? what to omit?

I'm a fan of the WW2 Windproof Smock, the Cadet Smock, the WW2
Gebirgsjäger windbluse(anorak) and the older Swedish Army Anoraks-
I have examples of all of these.

They all have differing features, pocket configurations, fastenings, drawstrings, armpit gussets, etc. The Gebirgs anorak being the most complex in design, with a lace-up throat. This Anorak has a proper pivot-sleeve type
armpit gusset, which works well, the Swedish anorak has a very useful gusset
in the armpit.

To my mind, the armpit gusset concept is a very necessary feature, allowing full arm movement, without pulling upward and perhaps disturbing the layers of clothing beneath.

But what of throat closures and other features?

Aesthetically, which may not be so important, the Gebirgs and the WW2 Windproof do it for me.

Practically, the Swedish anorak seems to be the front runner, being generous in size and length and allowing a good range of movement.

I have also seen anoraks with "skirt adjustment by way of side-lacing",
which may, or may not be so practical.

So, with the idea of making an anorak in mind, shall we discuss the design
of a simple, ultimately functional anorak?

I know Messrs. H.Johnson, D.Doright and C.Past have definite ideas...


B
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[BellyTank]

French Anorak

For Dave, the French Anorak.
(Hi-jacking? again?)
Go on, start a design an Anorak thread!

Sorry for the bad photos, bad light and blizzard here.

The interior marking is:
Albert Gill
1942
(broad arrow)

"Albert Gill" could almost be a French name...

It came from France and has a French(Eclair)zip at the throat.
It is made from the rubberised/laminated cloth.
Colour is more khaki than in the photos, which were taken in very bad light.


B
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[Dudleydoright]

There is also a post WW2 French Chasseur Alpin anorak in olive green with 4 pockets on the front. I recall the chest ones are angled towards teh opposite side and the lower ones towards the side the are on. Quite long too with drawcords at waist and hem.

They are to be found fairly cheap.

Been a whiles since I last had one but they weren't a bad bit of kit.

Dave

 

[BellyTank]

I had one of those French ones, once.


B
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[Dudleydoright]

And so did a LOT of French Alpine soldiers !!

Dave

 

[BellyTank]

Wet test.

Just did some water(proof) testing...

The WW2 British Windproof smocks, which are not the actual speckled beige cloth but a cotton gaberdine(I have previously referred to it as cotton twill), one khaki, one OD/green- both suck the water up instantly.

The repro Gebirgs anorak sucks too.

The old pattern Swedish anorak wets eventually but doesn't soak through.
This cloth is dense and tightly woven.

The later model Swedish anorak and button-through parka, which looks and feels like cotton but actually seems to be poly/cotton, sheds water, shed-loads- haven't been able to soak it.

The Swedish forces were surely aware of the benefits of tight/finely woven cloths in this climate, so I imagine in designing these anoraks and such,
there would be some in built shower-proofness, or at least resistance to
soaking.

I imagine all of these anoraks I have are quite effective as windproofs but some tolerance to water is surely an advantage.

Wet cloth will mean extra weight and cling and will surely hinder
movement and definitely reduce comfort.

Now I need to make a Ventile Anorak!

We have a new blizzard here in Stockholm, maybe some further testing,
in the field is in my near future.


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