US Coast Guard vs. Navy G-1 (G-1 experts, please help)

[KELORGO]

I've been interested in G-1s for a few years now, and in that time I've noticed that only the US Coast Guard G-1s are issued with hand warmer pockets. These are unobtrusive, since they are completely hidden behind the patch pockets on the front of the jacket. There are new Orchard G-1s listed on ebay, one without the fur collar (like an AN-J-3). While I can't quite make out the Mil-Spec on the tag in this jacket, another USCG G-1 just sold on ebay. It had the mouton collar and it's spec tag read:

Jacket, FLyer's, Intermediate, Type G-1
Size - -
MIL-J-7823E(AS)
Orchard M/C Dist. Inc
8415-00-286-7802
DLA 100-86-C-0481

I know that MIL-J-7823E(AS) is the most current G-1 spec for the Navy, and that the G-1 jackets can now be made of goatskin or cowhide pressed to resemble the grain of goatskin. I'm hoping that the G-1 experts in the Lounge can educate me as to when the US Coast Guard began issuing G-1s to their aircrew. Does the mil-spec tag above hold any hidden codes designating it as a Coast Guard jacket or that it has hand warmer pockets?

If anyone has recently bought a Coast Guard (or Marine or Navy) jacket from Orchard Motorcycle Distributing off of ebay recently, could you please share some information and/or photo with us? I'm wondering if the cow hide would hold up as well as goat skin and how it affects the wearability of the jacket.

Thanks for any and all help!
KELORGO

 

[AviatorBRZ]

KELORGO, USCG aviation started, I believe, in 1916. And yes they have issued G-1s to the USCG aviators. I know they issued G-1(AN 6552) to USCG aviators in the early 40's, previous that period I'm not sure.
I will be posting a thread about one of these jackets soon.
However I have to confess that i never saw any G-1 (military-issued) jacket with hand warmers except for that Orchard jacket. Where you got this information about USCG G-1s have hand warmers?
About the Orchard M/C Dist. Inc. I've heard something about they have continued producing 7823E(AS) jackets until some years ago under that contract of 1986. So maybe some Orchard jackets with that contract "DLA100-86-C-0481" aren't really made in 1986, maybe newer.

Here you can found a .pdf file with the 7823E(AS) spec from 1971:
http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-J/

In this same page you can see and "Amendment 3" from 1984 to the 7823E(AS) spec. So, should exist the amendment 1 and 2, maybe there is the possibility to hand warmers.

 

[KELORGO]

Thanks, Aviator BRZ. I had no idea they issued G-1s to the USCG that far back. I don't know why, but I assumed they were a much newer issue. Ever since I've been interested in the G-1 I have read hundreds of threads online and have seen thousands of G-1s. Every issued G-1 that had/has hand warmer pockets has been a USCG jacket. I don't know if they were all Orchards or not, but I'll certainly make sure to keep this in consideration as I look at USCG jackets from now on.

I saw another FL thread about Orchard's A2 jackets wherein the Loungers reported that Orchard may just be using their old tags inside of newly produced jackets, but they aren't being issued right now. Maybe they are doing this with the G1?

I really look forward to your thread about one of the Orchard G-1s. Is yours one with the mouton fur collar or without? Do you think the Orchard cowhide is as nice as a goatskin G-1 (is it more or less substantial feeling when you wear it?)

 

[AviatorBRZ]

KELORGO, Yes, I think the Orchard did that. Orchard M/C Dist. INC. had the contract of G-1 in 1986 along with the Brill Bros INC.
But in 1987 only Brill Bros continued with the production of G-1 under the contract (DLA100-87-C-0739). So Orchard only produced military-issued G-1s in 1986. Anything made after that by Orchard, I believe, was not issued to any military arm.
Actually I'll create a thread about an AN 6552 jacket from 40's issued to USCG, but it was not made by Orchard.
About the type of leather, I'm not the best person to give you that opinion. I have G-1s with both, cowhide and goatskin, but can't aswer you this question with the same precision that some users here could answer. Some people here have A LOT more experience in types of leather, so I'll let to they give their opinion.

 

[Treetopflyer]

Both Navy and Coast Guard Aviators start their training in Pensacola, FL and get the same gear issued to them at the same place at the same time. The only difference is that the Coast Guard G-1s have USCG stamped in the wind flap. Here is a good website that shows some pictures of USCG Aviators from the 40s and 50s.
http://navypilotoverseas.wordpress.com/category/heicopter/

 

[Aerojoe]

Both Navy and Coast Guard Aviators start their training in Pensacola, FL and get the same gear issued to them at the same place at the same time. The only difference is that the Coast Guard G-1s have USCG stamped in the wind flap.

I agree. M422 and G1 spec are;

MIL-J-7823E(AS) 1971
MIL-J-7823D(WP) 1966
MIL-J-7823C (WEP) 1962
MIL-J-7823B(WEP)1960
MIL-J-7823A(AER) 1961
MIL-J-7823(AER) 1951
55J14 (AER) 1947
AN-J3A 1943
AN 6552 1943
M-422A 1940
M-422 1940

None of them have hand warmers. Regarding AN jackets, army-navy, it is not clear if they were actually issued to aviators.

BTW, does anybody know what are the differences betweenm-422 and m-422a?

 

[AviatorBRZ]

Good question...
One of the diferences I know is the pen/pencil pocket hidden under the front left pocket flap. M422 doesn't had it, and M422a had.
Can't say another

 

[KELORGO]

Thanks Aerojoe and Treetopflyer. Treetopflyer, those pictures of are awesome. I learn something EVERY day on FL, and get to see some really neat jackets that I otherwise wouldn't as well!

 

[alangloi]

U.S.Wings have USCG G1's (in goat) with handwarmers (way down on their G1 page), and apparently sell some to the government/military. I have had mine (48 Long) for a few years and I like mine. Don't get much chance to wear them in Florida though.

 

[KELORGO]

I'm still trying to get a definitive answer on USCG G1 jackets and hand warmer pockets. I was going to sign up for the Coastie's flight forum, but its not taking any new users right now. I'll report any news back to FL.

 

[Biggles88a]

Disclaimer: The following gets very administrative with little pictures. It has the potential to be very tiring and/ or boring to read. In this case I happily consent to this post being removed ASAP.

Hello KELORGO
sorry to intrude, but I was just reading through my NATOPS manual (mentioned by treetopflyer in a thread called Top-gun-movie-jacket in this forum) and before that blue sleeping pill had a chance to unfold its ferocious effects I distracted myself by researching the net to see if I could assist in your querie in any way.
First of all I do believe a great authority on your subject matter interest would be Mr. Chapman of Good Wear Leather, but I would assume he is presently somewhat busy crafting unbelievably awesome jackets for more than one gentleman in this forum. An email is worth a try, though. In any case, here is what I have found so far:

This is the site for the USCG uniform regulations, you will find a pdf (http://www.uscg.mil/hr/udc/docs/CIM_M1020_6G.pdf) dealing with general USCG regulations, section 4.D addresses "organizational clothing", subsection 4.D.8. addresses Cold Weather:

"Commanding officers may issue additional cold weather clothing when necessary to
ensure crew safety and comfort. Cold weather clothing includes, but is not limited to,
parkas, MustangTM suits, polypropylene underwear, gloves/mittens, and the Government
Issue G-1 leather flight jacket. The G-1 leather jacket is limited to use by aviation
personnel in approved flight status and currently on Flight duty at the discretion of air
station commanding officers.

Cold weather clothing may be worn with Coast Guard uniforms for commuting to and
from work unless deemed inappropriate by the local command." (also addressed in the "summary of changes" in that document).

4.D.3 addresses flight crew regulations with referrals to references (g) -Aviation Life Support Systems Manual, COMDTINST M13520.1 (series)- and (h) -Air Operations Manual, COMDTINST M3710.1 (series). While Ref (h) doesn't really address the G-1 leather flying jacket, Ref (g) states in Chapter 7 (Protective clothing) under section D.
FLIGHTJACKET.
1. Introduction. Two types of flyer’s jackets are authorized for procurement
and issue to all aircrew.
a. G-1 Leather Jacket
b. Multiclimate Protection System (MCPS) Shell Jacket
Taking the annual climate and geographical flying area into consideration,
each Commanding Officer will determine the appropriate jacket that shall be
worn, regardless of the procurement source.
2. G-1 Flight Jacket Configuration. The G-1 leather flight jacket (Figure 7-2)is
constructed of brown leather with a nylon cloth lining. The collar is mouton
(sheep’s wool). The cuffs and waistband are stretch knit to provide a snug fit.
The jacket is generally equipped with two external pockets and one inner
pocket. Bellows extend from the shoulders to the waist and prevent the jacket
body from riding up or binding with arm movement.
Figure 7-2. G-1 Flight Jacket
3. Application. The G-1 jacket is designed to provide thermal protection in
temperatures of 50 °F and above.

I have not found any indications of hand warmer pockets in USCG regulations, maybe US Wings (as the alleged "sole supplier of G-1 to the USCG") would be willing to shed some light on the matter, or the USCG themselves. I have found a lot of regulations regarding construction/ distribution and handling of G-1 jackets in the USN/ USMC (Department of the Navy) but that would be too much to post. And of course I have my own opinion on the matter as well as observations from the fleet on how things are dealt with and how these jackets are viewed. Again, many more lines of jackjack.

Well I hope you haven't fallen asleep, but if so, rest well!

v/r
Biggles88a

 

[AviatorBRZ]

Hey Biggles88a, good info you brought to us. I'm downloading the .pdf that you've mentioned to take a look.

"I have found a lot of regulations regarding construction/ distribution and handling of G-1 jackets in the USN/ USMC (Department of the Navy) but that would be too much to post."

 

[KELORGO]

Thanks, Biggles88a and AviatorBRZ. I didn't fall asleep, and I thank you for posting your information. I have emailed the Coast Guard Aviation Association's president and secretary, and also the USCG Aviation Logistics Center in Elizabeth City, NC asking them about whether or not G1s used by the CG have handwarmer pockets. I don't anticipate hearing anything until at least Tuesday (if at all), due to the holiday on Monday.

I can say that Pop's leather has supplied new G1s to Navy pilots, and has added hand warmer pockets to issued jackets. These won't show up in any specifications, but have reportedly been used in the fleet. I have one of Pop's G1s and the pockets are totally hidden unless I decide to stick my mitts in them. I think we'll see that there's a difference in "used by" and "issued to" jackets in the USCG as well.

By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that Pop's helped the Air Force along in changing the current A2 to include more leather under the arms and hand warmer pockets. Many pilots had their issued A2s altered to be more useable by Pop's over the years, and I wouldn't be surprised that one or two of these guys/gals made it far enough up the chain of command to have their views influence the "new" A2. Tradition is hard to change, unless you're one of the people who's been stuck in an archaic system and you finally get a chance to shake things up. I respect the "authenic" A2s for their historical value, but I also believe our aircrews deserve a practical jacket they can move around in. I think the current A2 honors the history of the Air Force (and the aircrew who have worn the A2 along the way) while being a more practical everyday jacket. Sorry to go off-topic!

 

[Biggles88a]

Sunday morning G-1 blues

Hi and cheers on a lazy sunday morning. After digging around a couple of minutes I retrieved the following from the net:

The following NAVY page deals with "organizational clothing, informative text for the interested:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/support/uniforms/uniformregulations/chapter6/Pages/6801.aspx

This page is the recent NAVY message on "occasions for wear" for flight suits and G-1s; THEY MAY BE WORN OUT IN TOWN TOGETHER! Standardized of course, brown/ black flight boots should be clean as well... always a good base for discussion with naval aviation personnel, boots and the shine..:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2012/NAV12164.txt

This 10126.4D deals with MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF LEATHER FLIGHT JACKETS, again NAVY not USCG:
http://doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives...0-100 Personnel Material Support/10126.4D.pdf

I have yet to find some USCG document that links the procurement procedures to the navy, if there are any... How USCG aviation student personnel have their issue in Pensacola administered (US WINGS jackets exclusively?) I have no clue.

Plus, I would think the Navy pays about 140 USD for a not so good cowhide/ goatskin jacket, and there is a huge effort in the 10126.4D to control these jackets. I would understand if it was a GW creation that everybody goes crazy about but in my opinion quite a substantial effort for a made-by-the-lowest-bidder-product. So, an inferior (with regards to WW2 quality) jacket is now AUTHENTIC because it is issued. Plus, in the air and on the ground these days you want to look and feel combat cool, so go hip with a DRIFIRE two-piece-flightsuit and some MASSIF cold weather gear. Add a nifty fire resistant combat shirt and off you go.

Sadly the cherished topic of leather flight jackets is not too huge among flying personnel (as I have experienced). It seems good enough that one has earned the right to wear one, the actual jacket or the quality of it seems to have not a lot of significance to most.

I was always very happy with my 1995 privately bought Flightsuits G-1 (on sale for 180 bucks back then because it had a hook/ pile name tag on it!), which I have just received back from Gibson-Barnes two days ago after exchanging the collar, waistband, zipper, cuffs plus the attachment of a retro nametag from flightjacket.com as well as an embossed unit leather patch by the same company. Cost of 88 bucks as part of their lifetime warranty programme for a "new" jacket... I mean, 17 years in naval service and still going strong... No gripes, future looks bright. Not as exclusive as GW but a nicer feel as the ELC M-422 which has a somewhat cardboxy feel (maybe Lexol will take care of that).

Have a great sunday!
Biggles

 

[AviatorBRZ]

Biggles88a, thank you... I will have something to read this week

 

[Biggles88a]

My pleasure, Sir.
Did you know there are sometimes Brazilian H-3 helicopter pilots in San Diego receiving training on SH-60F Seahawks? Two very fine gentlemen have just left in july to return home after a year in the US. I think they happily bought G-1s too... waiting eagerly for the temperatures in Brazil to drop to around 60 F.
Biggles

 

[bbc1969]

I saw this thread, and asked a co-worker who was a Flight Mech. on a HH-65 within the past few years before getting out of the USCG. He told me that his G-1 (which was not worn much here in socal, does indeed have handwarmer pockets, and USCG stenciled in the flap. He did say he had also seen the typical no handwarmer pocket, USN stenciled jackets worn by others at his command.