Unidentified WW2 US leather flight jackets???

[ELVIS]

Hi, i'm a new member on here, my name is ELVIS DAVIS. I've been collecting Militaria since 1978 and i'm from the UK. I've tried to identify two leather flight jackets i have in my collection, which are currently in storage but i'll dig them out and post photos.In the meantime maybe someone can offer a quick fix? The first is essentially an A2 with a fur collar, made in leather/horsehide,with no other characteristics or details of a G1.I saw a couple of photos in the book AMERICAN FLIGHT JACKETS (Maguire/conway) P 165, which i believe is mis-identified, my opinion is these jackets were issued WITH the fur collar and it was not added.My example has a dark brown heavy twill/gabardine lining, it bears all the other details of an A2 and i do not think it was a private purchase, undoubtably scarce can anyone shed further light?

Second is basically a G1 with leather collar, all made in goatskin, lining looks like a fine rayon faded to a brownish colour (maybe from a reddish). Both were bought in London UK by me about 30 years ago from a shop that sold American vintage clothing, the stock i was told came in bales and the best stuff resold through the shop (where i bought the jackets) the shabby stuff sold on the market.

Here's hoping...to aid ident i'll post pics later..thanks Elvis

 

[Edward]

If the second one is a genuine military issue, it could be a very rare birdy... At least, I've never seen an original ANJ3 in that configuration. The ANJ3 was a design that never went to full issue, intended to be a single jacket for both Army and Navy air arms. It was done in two styles, with and without the mouton collar. not one you commonly see these days; repros are even rare (I briefly own an Aero repro a few years ago; sold it on as it was too small for me).

This was it:

Unfortunately I took no photos of the back, but it was essentially a G1 without a mouton collar.

Instinct suggests that your jacket could be military, but is more likely to have been a good civilian repro (owing to rarity, though I'm happy for one of the real experts to correct me on this). It could also be one of those civilian bomber type jackets that were popular on the general market post-war. Does it have any details that seem out of place for military wear, like side-entry handwarmer pockets? It'll be interesting to see.

Regarding the3 first jacket, to the best of my nderstanding there was no dsuch thing as an issue A2 that came a standard with a mouton collar. I don't believe it would ever have been issue. The lining also sounds wrong. It could wel be PP/civilian, or possibly some very well done field-modifications. Can you tell whether the mouton is sitting on top of one layer of leather, or two?

 

[ELVIS]

If the second one is a genuine military issue, it could be a very rare birdy... At least, I've never seen an original ANJ3 in that configuration. The ANJ3 was a design that never went to full issue, intended to be a single jacket for both Army and Navy air arms. It was done in two styles, with and without the mouton collar. not one you commonly see these days; repros are even rare (I briefly own an Aero repro a few years ago; sold it on as it was too small for me).

This was it:

Unfortunately I took no photos of the back, but it was essentially a G1 without a mouton collar.

Instinct suggests that your jacket could be military, but is more likely to have been a good civilian repro (owing to rarity, though I'm happy for one of the real experts to correct me on this). It could also be one of those civilian bomber type jackets that were popular on the general market post-war. Does it have any details that seem out of place for military wear, like side-entry handwarmer pockets? It'll be interesting to see.

Regarding the3 first jacket, to the best of my nderstanding there was no dsuch thing as an issue A2 that came a standard with a mouton collar. I don't believe it would ever have been issue. The lining also sounds wrong. It could wel be PP/civilian, or possibly some very well done field-modifications. Can you tell whether the mouton is sitting on top of one layer of leather, or two?

Hi, and thanks for your reply..i'll dig out the jackets and post photos..but for now..the second one looks like the repro in your photo, no label in mine and the lining is badly worn..its well worn but the goatskin is great..has softened quite nicley..

as for the first jacket it has stitch marks from a former patch on left breast (as you look at it) and is very well made, it doesnt look post war civvy to me..thanks for your comments i'll try and post today...

 

[ELVIS]

well try as i might ..i cannot figure out how to upload images..any help..

 

[ELVIS]

wow this forum is hard to navigate..apparently i can't post images/attachments..what is that all about?

 

[Edward]

You have to have a certain minimum number of posts before you can do that, if memory serves. The easiest option is to post a link to photos hosted elsewhere - e.g. on photobucket, or facebook, or any such service.

 

[Two Types]

well try as i might ..i cannot figure out how to upload images..any help..

This from the FAQs:
"To include an image that is not uploaded as an attachment and is located on another website, you can do so by copying the full URL to the image, (not the page on which the image is located), and either pressing the 'Insert Image' icon or by typing

after it, ensuring that you do not have any spaces before or after the URL of the image. You can insert photos from your albums (?) in this way too."

I upload my photos to a Photobucket account, then copy the URL from the image on photobucket. That should do the job.

 

[ELVIS]

If the second one is a genuine military issue, it could be a very rare birdy... At least, I've never seen an original ANJ3 in that configuration. The ANJ3 was a design that never went to full issue, intended to be a single jacket for both Army and Navy air arms. It was done in two styles, with and without the mouton collar. not one you commonly see these days; repros are even rare (I briefly own an Aero repro a few years ago; sold it on as it was too small for me).

This was it:

Unfortunately I took no photos of the back, but it was essentially a G1 without a mouton collar.

Instinct suggests that your jacket could be military, but is more likely to have been a good civilian repro (owing to rarity, though I'm happy for one of the real experts to correct me on this). It could also be one of those civilian bomber type jackets that were popular on the general market post-war. Does it have any details that seem out of place for military wear, like side-entry handwarmer pockets? It'll be interesting to see.

Regarding the3 first jacket, to the best of my nderstanding there was no dsuch thing as an issue A2 that came a standard with a mouton collar. I don't believe it would ever have been issue. The lining also sounds wrong. It could wel be PP/civilian, or possibly some very well done field-modifications. Can you tell whether the mouton is sitting on top of one layer of leather, or two?

what?..i am wondering was the point of the ANJ3A with mouton collar?..its virtually identical to a G1..

 

[Edward]

what?..i am wondering was the point of the ANJ3A with mouton collar?..its virtually identical to a G1..

The plan was that it would be issued to both Army and Navy pilots (ANJ = Army and Navy Jacket), replacing both M442a and A2. One design, economies of scale... Of course, that plan was superceded when the USAAF instead decided to drop leather in favour of textiles, with the short-lived B10 and much longer lasting B15 onwards.

 

[ELVIS]

http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/elvis_davis/library/?view=recent&page=1 here you will find the pics of my 2 jackets..all q's answered..thanks Elvis

 

[Atticus Finch]

Well...I'll hazard an opinion although others here are more knowledgeable about WWII era leather. The jacket with the fur collar appears to be an old civilian jacket...probably from the 1940s. The collar appears to be original to the jacket and A-2s weren't made with fur collars. It isn't a Navy ANJ3 because they were goatskin, had interior wind flaps and no epaulets.

On the other hand, the goatskin jacket is very interesting. It may well be an Air Force version of the ANJ3. If it is, its the only one I've ever seen. My understanding is that there weren't very many USAF ANJ3s and they were never totally uniform in design. All of them had leather collars, but some had exterior wind flaps (like yours) while others had interior wind flaps. Some had epaulets, and some didn't. Of course, this begs the question as to why its patched as a USMC jacket. I guess it is conceivable that a Marine could have somehow gotten possession of such a jacket, but I would think it wouldn't be a normal thing.

AF

 

[ELVIS]

ok..the photos are up..and with the comments i've rcvd so far here's my take on this..the goatskin jacket is clearly an original military issue of the repro jacket sent in by Edward. I suspect the paint and 323 sq insignia may have been added post war, maybe for a movie or just a whim but its old..it was shedding paint when i bought it in the 1980's.The USMC cloth patch looks original and may have been there since the war.A rare jacket showing wear consistent with much use but the leather goatskin is still on great shape. As for the 'A2 with fur collar'..i still believe this is military issue, there is the photo in the Maguire/conway book showing 2 aircrew wearing them, my example has not had the collar added, also it bears the stitch marks of a former tag in the neck. I'm pretty certain its issue as the size tag (40) is similar to other tags in military issue jackets.The big question is was it given a Type number, i think it may have as did the ANJ3a type which was produced with a leather collar (as mine is) and a mouton collar.Somebody somewhere surely has one with the tag intact..if they do..i'd love to see it..regards Elvis

 

[Atticus Finch]

As for the 'A2 with fur collar'..i still believe this is military issue, there is the photo in the Maguire/conway book showing 2 aircrew wearing them...Elvis

Can you direct me to the page number where that photo appears in Maguire? BTW...take some of the information in this book with a grain of salt. For example, they repeatedly refer to WWII Navy jackets as "G-1s". Of course, the G-1 didn't appear until several years after the war. What Maguire and Conway identify as G-1s are actually M-422s and M-422As.

AF

 

[Edward]

Well...I'll hazard an opinion although others here are more knowledgeable about WWII era leather. The jacket with the fur collar appears to be an old civilian jacket...probably from the 1940s. The collar appears to be original to the jacket and A-2s weren't made with fur collars. It isn't a Navy ANJ3 because they were goatskin, had interior wind flaps and no epaulets.

On the other hand, the goatskin jacket is very interesting. It may well be an Air Force version of the ANJ3. If it is, its the only one I've ever seen. My understanding is that there weren't very many USAF ANJ3s and they were never totally uniform in design. All of them had leather collars, but some had exterior wind flaps (like yours) while others had interior wind flaps. Some had epaulets, and some didn't. Of course, this begs the question as to why its patched as a USMC jacket. I guess it is conceivable that a Marine could have somehow gotten possession of such a jacket, but I would think it wouldn't be a normal thing.

AF

That would be about my analysis. I've only ever seen repros of the ANJ3, though if you were going to fake a jacket, wouldn't an A2 be easier? It could be the real deal.

ok..the photos are up..and with the comments i've rcvd so far here's my take on this..the goatskin jacket is clearly an original military issue of the repro jacket sent in by Edward. I suspect the paint and 323 sq insignia may have been added post war, maybe for a movie or just a whim but its old..it was shedding paint when i bought it in the 1980's.The USMC cloth patch looks original and may have been there since the war.A rare jacket showing wear consistent with much use but the leather goatskin is still on great shape. As for the 'A2 with fur collar'..i still believe this is military issue, there is the photo in the Maguire/conway book showing 2 aircrew wearing them, my example has not had the collar added, also it bears the stitch marks of a former tag in the neck. I'm pretty certain its issue as the size tag (40) is similar to other tags in military issue jackets.The big question is was it given a Type number, i think it may have as did the ANJ3a type which was produced with a leather collar (as mine is) and a mouton collar.Somebody somewhere surely has one with the tag intact..if they do..i'd love to see it..regards Elvis

The photo in the Maguire/Conway book - is that of aircrew in the CBI theatre? Adding a sheepskin or mouton collar was common in that theatre (pilots found it helped stop chafing on the neck). (There were also the former AVG pilots some of whom continued to wear their M442as, though they would be identifiably different). A2s were never issued with anything other than aleathercollar, however. Jackets in the CBI field were modified; I believe that was also where there were the most pp jackets in service too.

 

[ELVIS]

its P165..and i did see one or two of these jackets in the 1980's when i was collecting (A2 with fur collar) as i said mine has NOT been added, and i think it falls into the category of short issue jackets between the ending of the A2 and trying new leather types before the introduction of the B10/B15 types..

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Never heard of an original WW2 A2 (or post WW2) actually 'issued' with a mouton collar. Really don't think it ever happened after reading many discussions on the VLJ and other places by collectors and experts. Some 'experimental' jackets were made up during certain transitions...but not issued.
HD

 

[Atticus Finch]

its P165..and i did see one or two of these jackets in the 1980's when i was collecting (A2 with fur collar) as i said mine has NOT been added, and i think it falls into the category of short issue jackets between the ending of the A2 and trying new leather types before the introduction of the B10/B15 types..

My edition of the book discusses Ralph Jenks' A-2 which had a mouton collar...but it also says he added it.

Serious A-2 collectors know every WWII A-2 contract by number, date and maker. Those guys can look at an A-2 and, without even seeing the tag, can tell you when and by whom the jacket was made. If there's ever been an A-2 contract that specified mouton collars, I'm confident John Chapman, Andrew (on this board) and several others over on VLJ would know about it. That being said, we're all still learning and none of us knows everything. If your research turns up such a contract and it can be verified by maker and number, I will be the first to humbly and graciously admit my error.

And...please let me say...you have two very nice jackets there. I'm still of the mind that your goatskin jacket is the first USAF ANJ3 that I've ever seen.

AF

 

[ELVIS]

My edition of the book discusses Ralph Jenks' A-2 which had a mouton collar...but it also says he added it.

Serious A-2 collectors know every WWII A-2 contract by number, date and maker. Those guys can look at an A-2 and, without even seeing the tag, can tell you when and by whom the jacket was made. If there's ever been an A-2 contract that specified mouton collars, I'm confident John Chapman, Andrew (on this board) and several others over on VLJ would know about it. That being said, we're all still learning and none of us knows everything. If your research turns up such a contract and it can be verified by maker and number, I will be the first to humbly and graciously admit my error.

And...please let me say...you have two very nice jackets there. I'm still of the mind that your goatskin jacket is the first USAF ANJ3 that I've ever seen.

AF

Thanks for your comments, and i'm inclined to agree with you. However, my instincts and knowledge of collecting for almost 40 years tells me this is a puzzle.The ANJ3 seems pretty conclusive to me, having compared it to the repro and also another (with mouton collar) i found on the net. The A2/mouton cannot be easily explained, its clearly not a standard A2 with added collar, because the collar has not been added and the lining is completely different, its bears the stitch marks of a former patch probably a squadron type, and everything else is same detail as an A2, all the other A2 styles ive ever seen by civilian maker has had at least one identifying difference in that either no collar studs or a quilted or civvy lining , side entry pockets, stud closure at neck or waist, or addional seam..this one has none of those, plus the military type size tag..leads me to believe it was made by and for the military, now as to whether it was ever given a type or contract number is another thing..i further believe it was issued ( meaning given to air crew) and i'm dubious about the opinion that the mouton collars were added ( certainly in any kind of regular whim)..but until one turns up with an intact label...its just my opinion..i'd like to thank those who have contributed to this thread..and i'm busy searching my archive for the next mystery..regards Elvis