Underage drinking

[W-D Forties]

When I was a teenager, many moons ago, our main aim in life was to 'get served in the pub'. To this aim we would spend ages on a Saturday evening getting dressed up whilst telling our mums that we were ' going round to Michelle's to play records.'
We would then go to the local pub that would serve underage patrons and nurse a half a lager or so for the night whilst chatting and listening to the jukebox. It was a rite of passage.

The reason I mention all this is in these days of tighter controls in pubs those days have gone. Good riddance you may say but it seems these days that the main experience teenagers have of drinking is necking gallons of cheap alcopops in the local park, then waking up in a pool of vomit with a stranger undressing them.

Whilst my going 'down the pub' at such a young age may have not been terribly legal (and being in the UK where the legal drinking age is 18, I'm taking about doing this aged 15 or so), it did at least introduce us to the sociable side of drinking and socialising. And, as long as we behaved ourselves we were tolerated by the other drinkers and the landlord. The police at this time must have turned a blind-eye as long as there were no anti-social behaviour issues, which there rarely were, as we never had the money or stomach to drink much!

I'm aware this may be a contentious issue (being a teacher and also a parent myself), but having neices, nephews and indeed students who have gotten themselves into some very sticky situations through drinking to excess unsupervised by anyone but their mates. I have known of teenagers choking to death or being raped under these circumstances.

I won't even go into the 18 year old who has just had her entire stomach removed this week through drinking a cocktail made with liquid nitrogen.

I'm in two minds. As a parent myself I know that alcohol is harmful, yet it is something that most teenagers will use and many don't know how to drink responsibly. I guess I am nostalgic for the days when it was all about going out with friends and feeling 'grown up' and not hanging around the park throwing up.

What do other loungers think?

 

[Big Bertie]

I grew up in the early to mid-70s and was certainly no stranger to underage drinking myself. The bar of the local cinema was notorious for its liberal admission policy - at 14 it was easy to be served pint after pint of Newcastle Brown Ale (Newky). I think back and am vaguely alarmed by the patent dangers that must have abounded - my schoolfriends and I frequently drank to grotesque excess, in a way that I would not countenance now - indeed I tend almost to be rather abstemious, and have been rigorous in never permitting my own children the excessive liberties that I exploited so avidly as a teenager. Oddly enough, my parents were teachers, and appeared quite unconcerned by my drinking. In the VIth form, some of us would slope off to the pub at lunch time, even, or hold impromptu cocktail parties in the cricket pavilion, where we seemed safe from all scrutiny.

All part of growing up in rather more easy-going times. Whereas my parents' friends were happy to drive home tight, to my children's generation, drink-driving is on a par with paedophilia. I do think there is a certain Anglo-Saxon puritanical streak lurking constantly below the surface.

 

[m0nk]

Well, as with anything, there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. In the US, our laws are much stricter than in most of Europe (and possibly in most of the world), partly because most teenagers (and their families) here go about things the wrong way. While I can see some value in educating kids about the wonders of alcohol in a proper way, even if we were to do that here, peer pressure and various partying would certainly turn that into a bad idea.

What I mean is this: I've heard stories about the French introducing their children to wine once they reach a certain age, and that's wonderful in theory, or in their environment. But, in practice, in the US, it doesn't turn out with positive results. My brother-in-law was headed back to his home town with his best friend one evening, over 5 years ago now, and they were hit by a drunk driver. The driver, an underage girl, had a history of underage drinking and driving. My brother-in-law was so seriously injured that he had to have numerous operations, plastic surgery to reconstruct his face, and years of infections to the surgery sites. His friend died in the accident immediately on collision.

Now, I would never stop drinking myself, and neither did he. But, I am very adamant that 21 is the age to start in our environment because no one here could responsibly teach their children how to respect the dangers of drinking. In other countries/cultures, I believe it might be possible to do that, but not in the US. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Undertow]

I see it like this - if you're old enough to take a bullet to the gut for Uncle Sam (or her Majesty), you're old enough to take a plug of whiskey for yourself.

Additionally, if you're old enough to work in a labor-intensive job, whether that's farming, construction, warehousing, etc, then you're old enough for booze. I don't care if you're 10 years old - if you're expected to lift like a man, you should be clear to drink like a man.

That all said, there's nothing wrong with nursing a drink after work, or maybe a second one if food is involved, but you gotta know you're limit. Drinking has been a problem in every era. There are those who drink entirely too much, too fast and too often, and there are the responsible ones.

I think the best thing a parent/teacher/guardian/adult could do is to both lead by example and start kids young. Booze shouldn't be a forbidden fruit, but it shouldn't be a party-in-a-bottle either. I'm not going to claim that's an easy line to walk. Some people should just drink Coke. [huh]

 

[LizzieMaine]

Never touched alcohol until I was 25. I wasn't a goodie-two-shoes about it, I just had zero interest. Nobody in my family drank except for my grandfather -- we were grape-juice Methodists, and we'd no more have wine or beer on the table as we would sacrifice a goat in the dooryard at high noon. Alcohol just wasn't any part of my world.

I knew that there were kids in school who drank -- they'd go up in this patch of woods up behind the school and get a snootful of Boone's Farm or some other horrible fruit-flavored sewage, and it didn't take too long for me to notice that the kids who did this sort of thing tended to be the -- ah -- underachievers. So I didn't see any reason why I should start drinking, and I didn't. There wasn't any peer pressure -- none of my friends in school ever touched the stuff either. Every summer a bunch of us would get together and go to the shore and have a clambake, and nobody ever drank anything stronger than soda -- it just wasn't our way.

I'll have a beer or a Tom Collins now and then, in my middle age, but I can't stand wine, sipped whiskey once and spat it out, and have never been drunk. I don't think I'm missing out on anything either.

 

[AmateisGal]

I don't know what the answer is. My father was very responsible with his alcohol intake - a beer maybe once a week. He didn't go to the bars, none of that. But me? When I went to college, I drank like a lush for the last three years. I had a good example and I didn't follow it (though to be fair, I was somewhat sheltered in high school and college was my rebellion phase).

In college and universities here, it's pretty much a given that alcohol is involved - even if you are on so-called "dry" campuses. There's lots of ways to smuggle in booze on campus and half the time the dorm managers, etc., just turn a blind eye to the whole thing (which doesn't help matters).

 

[Big Bertie]

...there were kids in school who drank ... the -- ah -- underachievers.

I'm quite sure that drinking at school did me no good whatsoever. On the other hand, at least the foundations were prepared for what was to follow at uni...

 

[sheeplady]

I never really got drunk until I was over the age of 21- and that has only been a few times. A heavy buzz, sure. Enough so I shouldn't drive, probably once a week. (I don't ever drink and drive- I wait at least 2 hours after each drink before driving, I have a designated driver, or I don't drink. If I am driving, for the most part, I don't drink.) I like alcohol. My parents drank very little at home. I did drink underage and kept alcohol (vermouth and sherry) in my first apartment when I was 19.

I do think that there is something about it being taboo that leads to young people over doing it.

In college and universities here, it's pretty much a given that alcohol is involved - even if you are on so-called "dry" campuses. There's lots of ways to smuggle in booze on campus and half the time the dorm managers, etc., just turn a blind eye to the whole thing (which doesn't help matters).

There was actually an attempt by several university presidents to lower the drinking age to prevent binge drinking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst_Initiative . Personally, I think it's disgusting the things universities do to some of the students and the fear they create regarding underage drinking. For instance, there is no amnesty for a person if you call an ambulance for them concerned that they may be dying of alcohol poisoning at many universities. That person could be fined for under-aged drinking or (at many universities) suspended or sent through the university judicial system. So student's don't call, and their friends die. Although I get that they are violating the law, I fail to see why universities themselves feel they have to punish such behavior and end up potentially killing students because their friends are too afraid to get in trouble and possibly ruin their academic career. Obviously, actual law enforcement is different, but university enforcement is a joke and I think it's excessive.

I have to add, this is one of the things that although I am over 21 (the legal age to drink in the U.S.) I feel incredibly strongly about working on a college campus. It's tragic when someone dies of alcohol poisoning, particularly someone so young.

 

[Gingerella72]

I think a lot of the problem in the U.S. is that drinking for teens/young adults is less of a way to simply enhance socializing, and more of a contest of sorts...."look how much drunker I am than you, ha ha ha" sort of thing. They try to out do each other by seeing how messed up they can get, as if that makes them stronger or cooler, somehow. At least that was my experience.

For many, the art of savoring the taste and mood of a single drink of alcohol doesn't exist....the ONLY reason to drink is to get drunk, period.

 

[AmateisGal]

I think a lot of the problem in the U.S. is that drinking for teens/young adults is less of a way to simply enhance socializing, and more of a contest of sorts...."look how much drunker I am than you, ha ha ha" sort of thing. They try to out do each other by seeing how messed up they can get, as if that makes them stronger or cooler, somehow. At least that was my experience.

For many, the art of savoring the taste and mood of a single drink of alcohol doesn't exist....the ONLY reason to drink is to get drunk, period.

I'm afraid this is it right here.

 

[AmateisGal]

I never really got drunk until I was over the age of 21- and that has only been a few times. A heavy buzz, sure. Enough so I shouldn't drive, probably once a week. (I don't ever drink and drive- I wait at least 2 hours after each drink before driving, I have a designated driver, or I don't drink. If I am driving, for the most part, I don't drink.) I like alcohol. My parents drank very little at home. I did drink underage and kept alcohol (vermouth and sherry) in my first apartment when I was 19.

I do think that there is something about it being taboo that leads to young people over doing it.



There was actually an attempt by several university presidents to lower the drinking age to prevent binge drinking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amethyst_Initiative . Personally, I think it's disgusting the things universities do to some of the students and the fear they create regarding underage drinking. For instance, there is no amnesty for a person if you call an ambulance for them concerned that they may be dying of alcohol poisoning at many universities. That person could be fined for under-aged drinking or (at many universities) suspended or sent through the university judicial system. So student's don't call, and their friends die. Although I get that they are violating the law, I fail to see why universities themselves feel they have to punish such behavior and end up potentially killing students because their friends are too afraid to get in trouble and possibly ruin their academic career. Obviously, actual law enforcement is different, but university enforcement is a joke and I think it's excessive.

I have to add, this is one of the things that although I am over 21 (the legal age to drink in the U.S.) I feel incredibly strongly about working on a college campus. It's tragic when someone dies of alcohol poisoning, particularly someone so young.

My daughter - a seventh grader - just asked me (literally an hour ago when I went to pick her up from school) why they keep making alcohol if 14,000 college kids die from it every year (they are learning about the dangers of drinking in school). I had to explain to her that we *tried* to do that once - Prohibition - and it didn't work, and that really, alcohol is only bad if you abuse it. I'm afraid alcohol abuse is so prevalent in our society today that I don't even see a beginning to changing it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Prohibiting it by law might not have worked, but temperance does. You don't need the government to tell you you can't drink, but you can certainly make the decision to abstain on your own. I salute any college kid who has sense enough to make such a decision -- he or she is already miles ahead of most of them.

 

[sheeplady]

My daughter - a seventh grader - just asked me (literally an hour ago when I went to pick her up from school) why they keep making alcohol if 14,000 college kids die from it every year (they are learning about the dangers of drinking in school). I had to explain to her that we *tried* to do that once - Prohibition - and it didn't work, and that really, alcohol is only bad if you abuse it. I'm afraid alcohol abuse is so prevalent in our society today that I don't even see a beginning to changing it.

I think it's good that they teach about the dangers, however; they should also teach more about responsible drinking- as in, how to responsibly drink, how to respond to pressures to drink, choosing not to drink, etc. I don't think that the fear tactics work. That and the media makes it all glamorous to drink to excess and even be addicted to a substance. I've known alcoholics (both active and those in recovery) and it's one of the least desirable states to be in, to be so addicted to a substance. Kids get all these messed up messages, and the problem is that most people can drink responsibly if they set limits and know how to do so, so at the same time kids are getting: it's evil!, it's glam!, it doesn't seem that bad! Rather than "this and this is what you do."

Despite my husband and I liking to drink, we had an alcohol free wedding. I was not going to have someone not make it home and my husband's family has several recovering alcoholics. I respect people who are fighting that addiction and I had no desire to tempt anyone- young or old. That and it saved us money!

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's a very good point -- the romanticisation of addiction in popular culture is not at all constructive. When we talk about great artists, great writers, great entertainers, great stars whose lives ended up in the bottle, we shouldn't be thinking "that's what made them great." Instead we should be wondering how much greater they could have been if they'd thrown the damn bottle away.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

Let me tell you about getting drunk. Oh, it's wonderful. You see, you think clear as crystal. But every move, every situation is a problem. It gets pretty interesting. You get beaten in the end though, sure, but that's okay. Where do you wind up? Where does anybody wind up? You die... that's okay, too. If you think that's awful, other things are worse.

 

[AmateisGal]

I think it's good that they teach about the dangers, however; they should also teach more about responsible drinking- as in, how to responsibly drink, how to respond to pressures to drink, choosing not to drink, etc. I don't think that the fear tactics work. That and the media makes it all glamorous to drink to excess and even be addicted to a substance. I've known alcoholics (both active and those in recovery) and it's one of the least desirable states to be in, to be so addicted to a substance. Kids get all these messed up messages, and the problem is that most people can drink responsibly if they set limits and know how to do so, so at the same time kids are getting: it's evil!, it's glam!, it doesn't seem that bad! Rather than "this and this is what you do."

Despite my husband and I liking to drink, we had an alcohol free wedding. I was not going to have someone not make it home and my husband's family has several recovering alcoholics. I respect people who are fighting that addiction and I had no desire to tempt anyone- young or old. That and it saved us money!

I completely agree that they should teach them how to be responsible drinkers. Fact is, most of these kids are going to drink when they get older. They're in middle school now and though I know there are probably those that have tried alcohol, it's not as prevalent as it will be in high school.

With me, I never wanted to drink in high school. I saw it as dangerous (probably because of my teetotaler mother who disapproved of my dad's one beer a week habit) and myself 'above' it. Well, that changed when I went to college. If I had been exposed to a more rational viewpoint, things might have been different.

In the end, I want to emphasize to my daughter that being responsible is the key to it all.

 

[scottyrocks]

I think it's a combination of self and environment.

I was always a good boy. No, really. I didn't get into trouble anywhere. So I guess I naturally didn't think to do things that were stupid/dangerous, etc. Factor 1.

My parents were not 'drinkers.' My mom never. My dad only when there was a party or gathering at the house. And he never got drunk. A little happy, sure. But never drunk. So I saw responsible drinking. Factor 2.

When I was about 16 I was allowed to have a small drink in the house only during these party events. I had a miniature of what my dad drank. Scotch and soda or a beer. As I had no prior experience seeing anyone drinking to excess, I didn't either. Factor 3.

Although there were maybe two times in my young adult life that I drank too much to remain clear-headed, it is obviously not my norm.

 

[Auld Edwardian]

I like good glass of wine with a meal, and in the cooler months a glass of single malt Scotch or perhaps fine brandy. I don't believe I have ever been drunk, and have never understood the "glamor" so have associated with going on a bender. Growing up we permitted a little something on special occasions, and when I turned 18 my dear late mother was the one who took me to the liquor store and bought me the beer of my choice. She said that she did not mind if I drank, she only did not want me to drink in secret, and never to drink and drive. We allow our 9 year old son to have a thimble full of wine with our Sunday dinner. And set a good example for him by not drinking too excess. Besides I would not like feeling of not being in reasonable control of myself, and a lampshade would complement any of my ensembles.

 

[Atticus Finch]

When I was 18, it was legal in North Carolina for people my age to drink beer and wine...but not distilled spirits. One had to be 21 to legally drink liquor. In the eighties, our legislature (because of certain Federal mandates) changed the legal drinking age..for all EOH...to 21. Looking back, I don't see that raising the legal drinking age helped the youth of the eighties (and beyond) to be much different than previous generations. In fact, when it comes to alcoholism and olther addictions, they may have turned out worse.

I've always thought forbidden fruit is uncontrollably tempting to teenagers.

AF

 

[Two Types]

As the parent of an 18 year old, I fully understand WD's point. In my day, you went to the pub as soon as you could get away with it. You drank relatively responsibly, if you didn't either the landlord would kick you out (maybe literally) or else some older blokes would put you in your place. It was good training. It was better to learn about drinking in a pub than in a field (in the woods, bus shelter, war memorial etc).
But now, that's all gone. Half of my daughter's generation learned to drink in public. Whereas my daughter doesn't really bother about drinking. The restrictions on teenagers in pubs are a nightmare for easing kids into the world of responsible drinking. My wife asked me to see if i could get our daughter some fake ID! I hasten to add that I refused.
A big issue is what teenagers drink these days. In our day we drank beer and cider. Nowadays kids drink cheap spirits. I don't think you should start on spirits until you reach your thirties. I know i didn't.

My solution to the problems of teenage drinking in the UK are far different to any of those proposed by politicians:

The government should rewrite the licensing laws to allow limited drinking by 16 to 18 year olds in 'wet' youth clubs. There are plenty of pubs closing down due to a fall in trade (partly closed by the teenage drinkers being kept out) they could be used for the role. Members only - everyone has to give ID. And they only serve a limited amount of relatively low alcohol drinks - weak lager, light ale, cider etc. And close early. It would boost the pub trade, give teenagers something to do, and teach them to drink responsibly. These 'wet' youth clubs could also promote other activities, like live music etc.

Next week .... my scheme to get 15 year olds working/training in industry.