(Trigger warning) Are we giving too much credit for wabi-sabi/Japanese craftmanship reputation for uneven graining (especially in high visible area)?

[long218]

Are we ignoring the obvious reason, which is cost savings?

To preface, yes I know many people find beauty in the uneven grains. But, if it wasn't for cost saving reasons, what is stopping jacket makers from offering smooth-only, uneven-only, and mixed versions, at least for the best-selling jacket silhouettes? Jacket makers can add an extra step of lightly tumble the leather before cutting the pattern to mimic actual usage and reveals the grains underneath. They just choose not to.

I attached 2 pics of uneven grains on two jackets but here's another example of the Real McCoy's Buco J100:

Smooth : https://buyee.jp/mercari/item/m76424896468
Uneven grain front panels : https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/l1065287123?

Is it because we, Western buyers, have always hold Japanese craftmanship to the highest level of respect and as such any evidence that might contradict otherwise gets rationale'd as either 1.the nature of the leather or 2.Japanese culture of embracing imperfection?

Or, perhaps it's the same phenomenon we see in Western clothing brands. First they would start with really high quality clothing at high-but-not-hyped price. They build a reputation for high quality at high price over a few years before they cash in their brand equity by cutting QC steps, reduce warranty, use less quality material, etc... while keeping the high price and capture an even fatter margins. Examples would be like Arc'teryx, Billy Reid, Todd Snyder, etc...

 

[cbez]

The contrast is a subjective, stylistic choice that's in style right now. Some people like it. There are all smooth or all grainy options for people that don't.

 

[navetsea]

is this what called wabisabi? I thought wabisabi has to be achieved through using the item and accepting the changing nature of all materials, in term of clothes fading, creasing, fraying, and then mending them to keep them usable. just like repaired several hundred years old wooden pillar with part of new wood, and some older repairs visibly exposed.

I get a feeling that fine creek washed or tumbled that small right front panels to show the fully broken in potential of said leather. perhaps they installed the handwarmer pocket and cut the panel roughly a little bigger than the size needed, then tumbling those panels for few hours, and then they cut it following the pattern, because somehow the grains follow/ build around the hand warmer pocket which I find interestingly faked.

 

[Will Zach]

I am with navetsea regarding definition of wabi-sabi. To me it is an appeal of old, frayed, fragile, but carefully mended item that still retains its functionality. But I did see a more general definition that wabi-sabi is beauty found in imperfection. Which is OP's point I guess.

Anyway, I have seen very uneven grain on front panels in many American motorcycle jackets from 1950s. I think it came from an effort at savings. Matching panels with quality leather is expensive! And these moto jackets were blue collar wear. So often one panel would be grainy as hell and the other pretty smooth.

I think some Japanese brands like Fine Creek in OP's example just copy that in order to look "authentic".

 

[Aloysius]

Yeah this is not only not wabi-sabi; it is the opposite.

 

[long218]

I think we understand in general the aspect of Japanese culture I am referring to when I misused the term wabi-sabi.

Let's focus on the uneven grain topic and whether we should have more agency on how our $2000 investment will look permanently especially when the jacket maker can put in guardrails to ensure customers can have 1. mixed panels, 2. smooth-only, or 3. uneven grain-only.

Why are we settling for less when we are dropping $2000?

 

[Aloysius]

let's focus on the uneven grain topic. I think we understand in general the aspect of Japanese culture I am referring to when I misused the term wabi-sabi.

What you're talking about isn't an aspect of Japanese culture. It's fashion marketing, in this case in concert with Lightning Magazine and similar publications. It just happens to be in Japan.

 

[navetsea]

usually the grainy parts is naturally softer and spongy, but from the picture above both front panel left and right looks equal in its drape and creasing, so comeback to my previous suspicion, this panel seems engineered / vintaged through tumbling or washing or exposing to I don't know what to produce that grain effect, and funnily those grains looks like they are formed around the hand warmer pocket, so it shows it's not the natural grain of the animal but rather forcely formed grain, if they want to save material this part can be used for biswing panel, or sleeve gusset, or leather facing or pocket welts, under the collar, side panels.

 

[Aloysius]

usually the grainy parts is naturally softer and spongy, but from the picture above both front panel left and right looks equal in its drape and creasing, so comeback to my previous suspicion, this panel seems engineered / vintaged through tumbling or washing or exposing to I don't know what to produce that grain effect, and funnily those grains looks like they are formed around the hand warmer pocket, so it shows it's not the natural grain of the animal but rather forcely formed grain, if they want to save material this part can be used for biswing panel, or sleeve gusset, or leather facing or pocket welts, under the collar, side panels.

Exactly. This is as artificial as it gets. The equivalent of those extremely over distressed jeans one finds at cheap mass market stores and designer boutiques alike.

It indicates nothing from any particular culture except a widespread fashion industry practice.

 

[AeroFan_07]

##

 

[PilotJens]

To me the uneven grain and it's appeal is funny .
I feel like nowadays you can strike gold with a lot of things that used to be bad .

Years ago there were TV shows about imitation cheese on frozen pizza and how to spot it .Now it is very desirable as vegan cheese .

Fake leather used to be deceiving or a sign of bad practice/quality.Now it is cruelty free leather .

"Artisans" trying to cut around blemishes and loose grain on leather. Now you can take the wrinkled and loose leather pieces and make a buck of them .

This kind of practice seems to involve

 

[Will Zach]

I think we understand in general the aspect of Japanese culture I am referring to when I misused the term wabi-sabi.

Let's focus on the uneven grain topic and whether we should have more agency on how our $2000 investment will look permanently especially when the jacket maker can put in guardrails to ensure customers can have 1. mixed panels, 2. smooth-only, or 3. uneven grain-only.

Why are we settling for less when we are dropping $2000?

You essentially have no agency with big brands. Your only option is not to buy their fake grain or fake "teacore".

For two grand you can go custom and specify your hide and your panels. Plenty of good makers out there who will make a mind-blowing piece for two grand.

 

[Tom71]

To me the uneven grain and it's appeal is funny .
I feel like nowadays you can strike gold with a lot of things that used to be bad .

Years ago there were TV shows about imitation cheese on frozen pizza and how to spot it .Now it is very desirable as vegan cheese .

Fake leather used to be deceiving or a sign of bad practice/quality.Now it is cruelty free leather .

"Artisans" trying to cut around blemishes and loose grain on leather. Now you can take the wrinkled and loose leather pieces and make a buck of them .

This kind of practice seems to involve

Finally a post on topic and not one merely lecturing the OP for his choice of words.

On the substance, I agree with you (interesting point about “cheese” there…).

As a fashion statement, mismatched grain seems to be a sign of something “real”, “timeworn” even. Maybe also a sign of our lingering insecurity in buying clothing “that lasts a lifetime” while only wearing it a few times on the weekends.
As an aside: nobody complained about Aeros A-2 with deliberately mismatched panels (explained as a copy of originals hastily put together in times of high production and low supply of hides).

 

[cbez]

You essentially have no agency with big brands. Your only option is not to buy their fake grain or fake "teacore".

For two grand you can go custom and specify your hide and your panels. Plenty of good makers out there who will make a mind-blowing piece for two grand.

Your agency is you buy a different jacket off the rack if don't like the one with a grainy panel. even within fine creek there are smoother and more uniform jackets. other brands even more options.

Personally I don't think the grain is 'fake', they have access to a huge amount of hides for a production run and can simply choose a grainy section for the panel they want. Or they ask the tannery to shrink some 5% more when they order. The ones I've handled didn't feel like stretchy belly leather.

Also throwing in that lost worlds does the same thing and everyone worships them...

 

[Bfd70]

Everybody worships LW?

 

[dudewuttheheck]

This isn't wabi sabi. Especially in Fine Creek's case, they really try to make mismatched panels on purpose on some of their jackets. That purposeful mismatch is not wabi sabi at all. It's basically a weird marketing ploy. I personally dislike it quite a lot. While I own vintage jackets that have different grain on different panels, none are to that extreme degree.

 

[Aloysius]

Finally a post on topic and not one merely lecturing the OP for his choice of words.

I tried to get it across by explaining it as a fashion choice, rather than an element of Japanese culture, but maybe I didn't get the point across.

As an aside: nobody complained about Aeros A-2 with deliberately mismatched panels (explained as a copy of originals hastily put together in times of high production and low supply of hides).

I think the difference there is Aero explicitly lists it as a realistic but cheaper option (with the price reduced) and when the panel matching is especially bad, they put it in the sales section at a big discount.

All that said I do have vintage jackets with stray grainy panels and enjoy them a lot.

The difference is I see that as accidental whereas the expensive pre-mismatched jackets you encounter now are more like those workshops that will take your modern Rolex/Tudor/Omega and run through a whole pre-ageing and fadeing process on it. I love old watches but not so much that. Nevertheless I've seen great examples from them and I can understand the appeal because I often dislike the modern design language of watch brands.

But in any case, it's fashion and I appreciate people having the option. Like Buzz Rickson MA-1 and other nylon jackets have an accurate slipped stitching going down the arm. This isn't due to Japanese culture; it's just reflective of how the original MA-1s were sewn on sewing machines calibrated for leather so the silky nylon would slip.

 

[long218]

Your agency is you buy a different jacket off the rack if don't like the one with a grainy panel. even within fine creek there are smoother and more uniform jackets. other brands even more options.

Lot of time the (uneven) grains don't show up until 5+ wears.

 

[cbez]

Lot of time the (uneven) grains don't show up until 5+ wears.

I have never found this to be true.

They're both making fake grain, and making stealth grain that waits for 5 wears?

Seems a lot more likely they're just selecting grainy contrast panels to look like vintage jackets and because the Japanese market likes it.

 

[cbez]

You will never find something like your fine creek example that starts smooth and magically pops all that grain after some wear...