Top hat and lounge suit

[Jovan]

Wow. The lapels on that man's cutaway in the Wiki article are really thin! Chalk up another to things that did not originate in the '60s (but were made really cool nonetheless).

 

[Edward]

The first picture of the 2 men in top hats is from 1929 on Wallstreet.

Thanks. Interesting.... I love that sort of period photo - non-posed, a glimpse into the everyday life of a point in the past. I wonder if any of those men are living still. I doubt it, somehow, but still...

 

[metropd]

I just watched Fred Astaire in the movie "Top Hat". He wore a silk top hat (not short, about 6 1/4 inches tall)with a lounge suit and it looked wonderful. Does anyone have a picture?

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

 

[metropd]

That's him in a dinner jacket, not a lounge suit.

He wore a Gibus silk top hat with black tie.

He wore a silk plush top hat with morning dress and a lounge suit.

I think he wore both a silk plush and a gibus silk with white tie as they are both appropriate with white tie.

As everyone knows on the FL to wear a gibus silk top with morning dress is strictly prohibited and one should only wear silk plush, beaver, mesluine, otter, sealskin, or moleskin.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

That's him in a dinner jacket, not a lounge suit.

Wasn't sure on my monitor, and as I haven't seen the film, I don't know about collar and neckwear he wears with his loung suit. The image is supposed to be from "Top Hat" (1927), though.

 

[D00R]

man I always wanted a nice top hat ever since I was a kid...

I like it with some height and the old fashioned curvy kind. Maybe someday,

 

[Phog Allen]

Nice photos. I think the gentleman in question is not wearing an English lounge suit but rather an American sack suit. As typified by the Brooks Brothers in the very late 19th century. Even as late as 1920 I believe wearing a topper with anything other than morning dress or a frock coat would have been a fashion faux pas. Even though I think you would have been hard pressed to find a true frock coat c1920. The reason I say the suit is a sack rather than a lounge is because(if memory serves and it might not ) even the English lounge suit had some semblance of darts in the waist area. Again, that thinking could be completely erroneous. I am not sure. It would be nice to see a comparison of the two styles side by side. There mightn't be as much difference as I think. And please, if this is all wrong, someone feel free to jump in and correct me.

I know that most here are taken with our Golden Age of mens dress but I truly love the middle Victorian era(those colourful waistcoats!) and the Edwardian period. The other chap in the high hat just has that look to him.

BTW, did anyone else notice the SHINE on most of the shoes? Wow.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Even as late as 1920 I believe wearing a topper with anything other than morning dress or a frock coat would have been a fashion faux pas.

Why "as late as"? Are you referring to any top hat, or to the kind worn exclusively with morning dresses today?

Otherwise, I'd have thought top hats were much more normal in more sartorial situations than today, though even as early as 1920, wearing a top hat "for no reason" (such as certain functions, weddings, an evening at the opera or at the races) was considered a faux pas, no?

.

 

[Phog Allen]

Why "as late as"? Are you referring to any top hat, or to the kind worn exclusively with morning dresses today?

Otherwise, I'd have thought top hats were much more normal in more sartorial situations than today, though even as early as 1920, wearing a top hat "for no reason" (such as certain functions, weddings, an evening at the opera or at the races) was considered a faux pas, no?

.

I get the semantics of your question but since the top hat in one form or another was the de facto hat for gentlemen from about 1840 to the end of the Edwardian era, then yes, it would have been late, as in the period in which they were most common. Even though the Edwardian reign ended in 1910, the era had a clear influence till the end of WW1 and maybe into the early 20's. The photo suggests at least some older gents at the time were clearly wearing top hats for daily business though we can never know exactly what these two doing at the time! It does show that fashions were becoming less rigid as to what was "correct" since just a number of years earlier I doubt we would have seen a gent with a top hat and sack suit.

When really did the top hat become a special event or evening only hat? Do people still attend opening day at Ascot attired in morning dress? And to expand a bit, what are the differences between a top hat worn with morning dress today and say, 100 years ago? I know the height and brim dimensions varied a lot through the decades of the 19th century but what makes today's morning dress top hat its own thing? Thank you.

 

[Tomasso]

It's also interesting to see several men in the photo without hats.....further proof that there were men going hatless a long time before JFK!

Yes, it appears that some lost more than their shirts in the crash of '29.

 

[Topper]

Sorry chaps been busy with the rush up to Royal Ascot in next couple of weeks.

Ok there are no official "rules " when to wear a topper. Each decade had different fashions, but over time the "most frequent" use of a topper was with tails either a morning coat, evening tails, or frock coat, ... remember a frock coat is a tail coat which still has "skirts" ... yes "skirts" (official term) at the front.

This doesn't mean that a Topper cannot be worn withough tails, is was merely less common (frequent, not socially common) to wear it with a standard suit or stroller (a stroller typically implys a black/dark lounge coat with black/grey striped trousers and black/dark wasitcoat).

When worn with a standard suit jacket a Topper would be worn with an "over"coat, and the hat taken off with the overcoat on arrival at a veune, therefore toppers are not exclusive to tailcoats.

Ultimately the visual eye "balanced" a topper with tails, nothing stops it been worn at other times, it just takes a bit of panasch to carry it off ;-)


Pip-pip

Topper


p.s. As to Royal Ascot dress code - yes in the Royal Enclosure one stilll must wear black or grey morning dress as a gentelman, with wasitcoat and top hat to get in. There are a lot of specific rules for Royal Ascot and happy to answer them if you wish.

p.s. Anyone who orders in with me June (Royal Ascot ! yah!) just mention The Fedora Lounge when ordering for a 10% discount on products.

 

[Phog Allen]

Hello Topper. Thank you for that information. It would be a real treat to attend Royal Ascot. In addition to the races, just seeing all those people attired in such a refined manner would be something.

It is interesting about the top hats with lounge or sack suits. Do you know if there is a difference between the English lounge and American sack suit coats? I have seen descriptions but never photos of the two side by side. I am making the leap that the lounge coat likely had some darting on the sides. The sack typically would not.

Ah, the frock coat. A real symbol manhood in my opinion. Skirts and all. I have always been a fan of the style. Morning coats too. Would that I had the budget to have a wardrobe full of them. I found this chap's photo over at Steampunk Workshop. I love the outfit. Well, not the shoes but he pulls off the look quite well. I am assuming that steampunk workshop has all rights to the photo if that matters. BTW, if the photo in your avatar is you, then indeed sir, you have the panache to carry off this look.

 

[metropd]

Here are some pictures of me in a lounge jacket and white cotton pants with my top hat.

 

[Topper]

Now this is what I mean! Metropd shows how style AND fashion can work together.

Frock coats are an interesting subject, Phog in your photo the person shows a coat nearing their knees, hence possibly not one made for them, but a frock coat in anycase.

As to the difference between lounge or sack suits I am unsure personally myself, slack suits is a term in the UK I am unfamiliar with ... I would refer you to Andy's forums http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/index.php
if you wish to dicuss styles in dress code.

Basically the frock coat would go to the knees, where as the Edward coat ( or 3/4 length jacket) would only go as far as the lower buttocks.

So there is many a variance in what frock coats are described as though I likewise do like the classic style....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj1wtpC-RIQ

 

[Phog Allen]

Thank you for those links Topper. I apoligise for not answering sooner. That link to My Fair Lady was so funny. It is one of our favourite movies and the Ascot attendees dress was so beautiful. Again, thank you for your input.

 

[Evan Everhart]

When really did the top hat become a special event or evening only hat? Do people still attend opening day at Ascot attired in morning dress? And to expand a bit, what are the differences between a top hat worn with morning dress today and say, 100 years ago? I know the height and brim dimensions varied a lot through the decades of the 19th century but what makes today's morning dress top hat its own thing? Thank you.

One is still compelled to wear appropriate Morning dress, which includes either a cut-away frock coat (usually called a swallow-tailed morning coat, or simply a cut away or morning coat), or a full-skirted frock coat, appropriate formal trousers, a top hat, tie, waist-coat, and etc, if one wishes to gain entrance into the Queen's (or if there is a male monarch; the King's) enclosure on the Ascot field. Generally speaking, more formal attire is preferred for the Royal Ascot races, but is compulsory if one wishes to be admitted to the Royal Enclosure. Interesting side note, women are not permitted to wear pant suits within the Royal Enclosure.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Interesting side note, women are not permitted to wear pant suits within the Royal Enclosure.

That's because that is considered 'business wear' and is certainly inappropriate when formal morning dress is required.

Okay, after some years of consideration, I can accept that a topper may be worn with black tie (with opera cloak or Inverness coat) but I can't accept it being worn with lower forms of dress without it becoming/looking 'odd' given many are use to equalling toppers with tails. If you're going to wear something as flamboyant as a topper you might as well go all in and wear full morning/evening dress rather than choosing to enter the halfway house. I agree there are no 'rules' if one is outside the formal decreed framework but still, there is a line between it being part of the ensemble and it being an 'accessory'.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I think it does, indeed, look odd.

Brad

 

[Topper]

Interesting side note, women are not permitted to wear pant suits within the Royal Enclosure.

Incorrect - they may be worn by ladies but must comply with: "trouser suits must be full length and of matching material and colour"

For Gentlemen it depends on if you are local or overseas visitor. Though "black or grey morning dress, including a waistcoat, with a top hat." is standard.