"Toffee" Optimo Signature Line

[Sergei]

Fedora,

I really honor the path that you are on. You are pursuing your passion. When one's soul is aligned with passion, then life is worth living every day.

I have to speak up for this site and myself. Yes, I do take offense at the Optimo jabs. Yes, I own two fedoras from Optimo. But out of the 20 or so hats I do own, there are some new and vintage Stetsons ( a Stetson 100x with the Stetson 100x hat box), a new and vintage Borsalino, several new and vintage Resistol's, PB's, Akubra's, etc... Quite a few westerns and fedora style. The point I will make is that the vintage felts really stand apart from the crowd. The old hatters from that great generation really contributed in a big way to our tastes.

However, with the situation TODAY, there are not that many hatters in the neighborhood that understand new felt, new liners, new sweatband and new ribbons. You can count the new current generation here in the US on one hand - Gary White, Graham, Black, David Brown, Peter Brothers, etc... I know I left out a few regional hatters out... There are but a few left, that understand the craft, let alone have complete "mastery".

You talk to Gary and he is not dissing Graham. You talk to Graham, he is not dissing Gary. Their product stands by itself. I enjoy a diverse world. I guess the bottom line is that I am not a Stepford Wife. I am an independent. If a good fedora comes along - hey I am all for competition and let the free market dictate purchases.

Just my .02, Fedora.... Just keep your passion alive. I just wish someday... I can pursue mine, like you did yours.

-Sergei

 

[Fedora]

Why are you trying to equate smooth with quality? I have some super smooth hats that are crap.

Dude, I can't believe that you said that!! Matt, the ability of a felt to finish very smooth is an indicator of quality. Think about it. I have some vintage Borsalinos that have a beautiful finish,and they are rabbit, or perhaps blended. Try to get that finish on an Optimo. You can't do it. Come on dude! But, you can get a finish like that on a good beaver body, with little pouncing. And that is an indication of a high quality felt. Look, once I get these hats made and out to folks, I will glady send you some sample bodies and some pouncing paper, and you can see for yourself. You will be able to witness what I am talking about, and forget what others have written, or said. Unless of course, you would believe the written word over an acutual experience.

If I read you right, regardless of what Optimo says their hats are made of, you just won't believe it. Is this correct?

Well, put it this way. If that beaver/nutria blend is what it is billed to be, it is the coursest feeling beaver/nutria blend that I have ever seen, or felt. Beaver and nutria are by nature very soft, and you can feel the softness when compared with modern rabbit felt. His hat feels like wool compared to other beaver/nutria blends. I suspect it is mostly rabbit, but can't prove it. Either that, or it is the worst example of the blend that was ever made. It would be a great example of what the beaver/nutria blend SHOULD NOT be like.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Smooth doesn't mean quality.
Resilience to wear means quality.


These rough vintage hats have been around for 70+ years. Your smooth beaver has been around for 6 or less months. Bring quality statements about the felt when it has been tested in the field.

I don't think you read the posts. I have had smooth felts that were crap and I have rough felts that are fantastic.

Florsheim makes a mighty shiny shoe. The leather is patent and the soles are painted to match the sides. They don't compare to Alden in leather quality or sole density. They may not shine like a Florsheim, though they wear a hell of alot better. It took me a few years of wearing Florsheim then switching up to Allen Edmonds to know what was really what regardless of the finish on the shoe.

Let's see your hats in action.

I remember how everybody was miffed when Optimo tapered. Many went to GH. Then GH hats Tapered. Now we have Optimo preblocked Beaver. Lets see how it turns out and not spoil the birthday party by yelling out how mommy bought the cake at Sav-On and didn't make it herself. The cake might be fantastic.

Other than the taper factor what else is there to hammer out on the quality of the hats? I havn't seent them sagging.

 

[Fedora]

Sergei, you are always the voice of sanity, crying in the wilderness of hatdom. You are my prozac. Man, you are right, hatmaking is a passion of mine, and I have high hopes of being really good at it one day. As you know, I am an opinionated old fart, who has a tendency to get carried away with my passions. I have been getting out of line since you stopped reminding me to take my meds.LOL I need to drop this Optimo thing, and move on, and try to be like those other guys who make hats. It is just hard for an old southern redneck like me to act civilized. And, the older that I get, the less that I seem to care. Sad. regards, Fedora

 

[Fedora]

These rough vintage hats have been around for 70+ years. Yur smoothe beaver has been around for 6 or less months. Bring quality statements aboutt the felt when it has been tested in the field.

Ok, I give up. Your rough vintage hats were finished rough, but have the ability to pounce smooth. The Optimo does not share that attribute. If you have a real fine smooth finished hat, it ain't crap. You are arguing for the sake of arguing, while knowing nothing about which you speak. I cannot talk to someone who makes foolish statements. No offense of course Matt. Some of the statements that you make are so ill informed, with no practical experience to back it up with. That is ok, as it is a free country.


Yeah, my hats will taper too, as I don't have a magic potion to stop it. But, it is high enough quality to be reblocked countless times.

On the preblock, don't expect miracles. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Are you kidding me... just try pouncing some of these vintage hats smoother. It's just how they were made and they are quality

If I recall right your new to the vintage hats. And I don't believe you have one that you have worn for over a year... on a camping trip... in the rain or elswhere.

I'll post some pics. You don't know vintage. You may think you know felt but how much do you really know? Re-read my posts... Any hatter worth his salt will tell you that beaver furs differ as do rabbit furs.

 

[Wild Root]

Some of the statements that you make are so ill informed, with no practical experience to back it up with.

OH MY, are you SERIOUS??? Matt is a very good friend of mine and I defy any one man to say he’s full of beans when he has been wearing felt hats since he was a kid. He has studied felt quality and he knows his shizle! You say that we are all idiots? Well, it takes one to know one bud! You are full of it! You have displayed some very ill manners and temper! Have a little class dude for the love of Jeff! For one that claims to be knowledgeable in felt to tell another that clearly knows what he’s talking about that he knows nothing is truly idiotic.

I can’t stand it any more. And you think we all are dumb, blind and closed minded? Ha, that’s a hot one! You’re just a big bully! A sandcastle kicker super deluxe!

Fedora, you’re a sad man.

Root.


:rage:

 

[gcollins]

Easy now, fellas, let's keep to the mission instead of diverting the issue to people. Everyone's cool, everyone has some experience or opinion to bear on this topic. Everyone's welcome to flip out now and again with no personal issue at stake--don't chong dong (chinese for get too emotional). This is only about hats, and none of us (which son will I leave this hat to?) will be thinking about their favorite hat in the last nanosecond of his life.

Now, is that clear beaver 100% beaver or have beaver content at all?

I believe we are waiting for Zohar to post some pics with the Fedora pics so we can get the comparisons.

Regards,
G

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Okay, I have your pictures saved, and today I will take some pictures to mimic yours in shot and composition, then do the side by side to compare.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Matt Mumbling to himself

..."One minute GH has the softest felt on the planet, next minute Optimo is too soft... One minute he's saying it's got the finish of a Stetson royal deluxe, the next it's too course... If it's all about quality, why are we talking about finish and not how the thing wears?" ...

 

[Marc]

If it's all about quality, why are we talking about finish and not how the thing wears?

I think both Rick and I discussed that to a certain degree.

Marc

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Because some folks are convinced that finish exemplifies the quality of the hat.

It is possible to spin and buff a hat till it's so shiny that it reflects light:

The feel and the handling of the hat has sold it for me. I can't find any guard hairs even when I wet a patch of the felt and agitate it; It's much more dense than any of my rabbit and/or blend hats, and it acts like vintage felt. It's beaver.

It may have a tiny bit more fuzz than another hat, but the finish is uniform, feels silky and luxurious. There are black guys out there that buy nothing but long hair all beaver hats that feel and look terrific. Are long haired all-beaver hats of a lesser quality than ones that have been buffed down? Not in my opinion.

I am going to take some pictures this afternoon so long as the sun holds out.

*edit- In the interest of full disclosure, I just found a guard hair, but it took about 10 minutes of searching the felt-

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Originally posted by Marc
I think both Rick and I discussed that to a certain degree.

Marc

Welcome Marc,

This is your first post in the thread. Am I missing something?

 

[BD Jones]

Originally posted by Matt Deckard
If it's all about quality, why are we talking about finish and not how the thing wears?" ...

Tastes great!!!! Less filling!!!! Wears great!!!! Less fuzzy!!!! LOL
Sorry, but that is what it seems like we have here. Two separate camps.

I have a cheap (low cost) wool fedora that I bought at Dillard’s several (maybe six) years ago. It has been through Hades and back and it looks the same as it did when I bought it (except for the dirt from yard work and the band which I replaced with a ribbon). There is no noticeable change in its shape. No taper. No brim sagging. No loss of color. No shrinking. I’ve worn it in major down pours and it has gotten so much dirt on it at times that it has looked tan (it is a dark brown hat). It has worn very well, better in fact than some of my other more expensive hats. Does this mean that it is a quality hat made from quality materials?

That's all I have right now. I'm back to my dark corner of the Lounge.

 

[Fedora]

Fedora, you’re a sad man.

I agree! It is a sad day when fellow hat lovers don't know the difference between quality felt, and hype. But, that does not surprise me in the least. You guys are products of the shuck and jive custom hat business.:cry: But, if I had spent as much money as some of you had on a certain brand of hat, I might defend it with all of the illogical arguments that I could muster. And, some of you, are getting very good at this. There is no logic in your arguments Matt. Never was, and apparently, never will be. So, I can't teach logic to a hopeless romantic, so I will move on. But wait......

Are you kidding me... just try pouncing some of these vintage hats smoother. It's just how they were made and they are quality

Please, someone, anyone who has pounced hats, enlighten this fellow. It is so difficult to argue when you get statements like this. It is like saying, rustic cabinets(by design) cannot be pounced smooth. Pleease!!!

If I recall right your new to the vintage hats. And I don't believe you have one that you have worn for over a year... on a camping trip... in the rain or elswhere.

How about one that I wore to work, in the rain, heat, dead of night? And one that I blew off daily with compressed air to get the sawdust out of the felt. And.........it never fuzzed up like lessor modern rabbit felt. You really need some hands on experience with hats Matt. I compare you to a guy who drives a sports car, and a guy who drives one, but also is a mechanic. If I needed to ask a question about the ins and outs of that particular car, I would ask the guy who worked on them. Duh......

 

[Fedora]

I am going to take some pictures this afternoon so long as the sun holds out.

Good. What is wrong with the first pics showing the fuzz? I took mine outside, in the sun, and the flash even popped. I was around 2 feet away, with the digital on macro. regards, Fedora

 

[Nathan Flowers]

I was 3 inches away with mine, hence the need for macro, and the fuzzier appearance. Macro from two feet away will soften the focus.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I wasn't going to say anything... I was trying to be cordial.
I didn't want to hurt the feelings of those who have your works.
In the interest of being open and honest.

I saw your beaver hat first hand at the QM... It's nothing to be proud of if you want to argue finish. The felt is nice... though you really only know how nice after a years wear. The blocking job was a disaster.

The felt had very thin spots around the top. The felt was stretched to a point where it was week at points. Very un uniform. If the wearer is not careful the hat will have holes in no time flat. You could also see what looked like steam burns from where you ironed the hat... a ring around the top that is pretty noticible in the photos of the one shown at the QM.

Your finishing is not uniform. It is smoother in some places than in others and much thinner in some places than in others. I can't take your word on knowing how a hat should look when you put out a product that looks like a sink made hat. I and several others on the QM checked it out. The issues with it were obvious.

It may be a good wearing felt, though you havn't a clue how it will wear because it hasn't been tested... it may last a life time it may not last the year.

I have smooth vintage hats that are rougher than Optimo and smooth vintage hats that are mercury smooth. Sand down one of your Whippets and show me how much smoother you can make it compared to Optimo.

Fedora. Beaver

Go ahead and question my experience with felt knowledge. I have big shoulders, I can take it.

I have worn holes in several vintage hats and modern hats. I have a stack of worn in hats in the closet. I have seen what works and what doesn't when it comes to felt.

If I want a super smooth hat I'll order another one from Worth and Worth in New York... They make a smooth finished hat, but it will shrink and crack in a year.

I know that Smooth doesn't equate to a quality long lasting hat... you don't!

 

[Fedora]

The felt had very thin spots around the top. The felt was stretched to a point where it was week at points. Very un uniform. If the wearer is not careful the hat will have holes in no time flat. You could also see what looked like steam burns from where you ironed the hat... a ring around the top that is pretty noticible in the photos of the one shown at the QM.

Ah, I knew it was coming. Ok, as I have told other folks privately, that hat was a second. It failed the 4 step inspection process at the factory, and I got it as a sample.....free. I figured trash was in the hat, but it ended up being thin places instead. So, that is the rest of the story, that can be verified.

It was a rush job, and as such, I did not take time with it, but......it was a free hat, and if the felt was not thin in places from the factory block, it would have been worth 225, in my book. Remember, I am not making high end custom hats. I am making an Indy fedora that will hopefully be worn as one would wear one. On the longevity of the felt, take away the thin places and it will outlast anyone of your Optimos. I know, because I have reblocked several Optimos, and they look worse with age. I can take critism of my hats, it only makes me want to do better. I pounced that hat by hand, for a few minutes just to get the singed fur slicked down. It felt 100 per cent better than the b/n Optimos that I have worked on. And you know that to be a fact, if you are honest. I have had a bunch of compliments on that hat, so it shows me that it was not a bad hat at all, and have even sold several because they liked the look. And, that is what counts.

It's nothing to be proud of if you want to argue finish

Well, compared to an b/n Optimo, it felt like goosedown, instead of wool. And while it may have had some fuzz, due to the rush job, it looked so much better than your Optimos in that department. Oh, I don't use the kitchen sink since I started selling em'. I have a hat shop on my property, and use a 20 gallon stainless steel pot now. But, I am glad you think the felt was ok. It is better than ok, and the company that makes these bodies, have been making bodies since the early 1900's,and more than likely made some of those vintage bodies you love. As far as I know, it is the oldest existing American felmaker still in business. I trust the felt.

know that Smooth doesn't equate to a quality long lasting hat... you don't!

This is a fact that cannot be refuted. First, in order to get a felt body to pounce really smooth, you have to start with a body that is comprised of very fine underfur, with the best being beaver, as it is the finest under that god made in regards, to hats. Next, the very fine underfur has to be reasonably pure, with few guard hairs, if any. Next, the felting process has to be such that the body is not forced to felt, but allowed to felt in its own natural speed. Each type of felt, beaver, nutria, rabbit, mink, etc, each have their own felting speed. Sometimes, with modern felt, and even will vintage felt, in the interest of speeding up production, the bodies were run through the rollers too fast. The result is an inferiour body, eventhough the underfur may have been top drawer. These bodies have telltale signs of this "forcing", but being as knowledgable as you are, you know what the signs are, so I won't patronize you on this. Next, in order to get a really smooth finish, the felt has to be really dense. That is, the fur is so tightly felted that you can slick it smooth with pouncing paper.

When you see a hat that has been pounced, and pounced alot, and it still tends to fuzz with wear, then one of the above requirements has not been met, and this means the felt is not top quality. Now, if you cannot understand this, something is wrong. It ain't rocket science Matt. Just common sense. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Originally posted by Matt Deckard
Matt Mumbling to himself

..."One minute GH has the softest felt on the planet, next minute Optimo is too soft... One minute he's saying it's got the finish of a Stetson royal deluxe, the next it's too course... If it's all about quality, why are we talking about finish and not how the thing wears?" ...

Ditto man. Right on!

We're not pushing Optimo... buy vintage! You have a vendetta against Optimo, of that you can't let go.

Knit pick them on how they last not how smooth they are... then you have an arguement. They make a damn tough hat light weight and heavyweight.