Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[AmateisGal]

And as much as I'm sure certain elements like to remind us that the Lounge is only a small sub-group of an already small subculture, change starts with small groups just like this.

It's not always pleasant, but I've learned an awful lot about myself and my society through some of these hack and slash threads. Complacency is like a disease, and sometimes we need a little shot to wake us back up.

Ditto.

Dissent (and sometimes poor manners) are part of such conversations, but the conversations still need to be had.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It is certainly the case and certainly sad, that some fathers are no more than little boys themselves. However, to define what it is to be a man by parenthood, something any animal can manage, is questionable at best. Epitome? Many, many of us make an active, informed choice not to become parents. Others are unable. Neither group are any more nor less "men" for that choice or circumstance.

I think for me the definition of a man -- and by this I mean a male human being who is entitled to be called "a Man" -- is one who lives according to strong personal principles, shows integrity in his dealings with others, and willingly accepts and carries out his responsibilities. Being a father isn't the only way one can be A Man, but if he does happen to father children, his paramount responsiblity, from the moment of conception to the day they turn eighteen, is to be a parent to them. Nothing else he will ever do in his life will be more important than that responsibility. A man so-called who fathers a child and walks away from it is no Man at all. In my eyes, he forfeits all right to that title, and for that matter, to any other respect.

And yes, principles, integrity, and responsibility are just as important for women. But we were talking specifically about boys here, and the pitiful role models that modern culture offers them. We're running a film this week that features a prime example of what I and others are railing against. There's this magazine reporter, with blow-dried hair, a leather jacket, and a carefully-calculated amount of scruff on his face, who sloughs off the daily routine of his job to the interns, and chases irresponsibly after an old high-school girlfriend in hopes of one more romp in the hay. When she tells him to get lost, he has a tantrum, and accosts one of the interns, a shy nerd/geek stereotype, and shanghais him into a night of wild carousing as a way of reasserting his "manhood." He grabs the geek by the shoulder, shakes him, and yells "ARE YOU READY TO BE A MAN!??" And then he drags the kid off to a gravel pit, where they smoke pot, guzzle booze, and pick up some random prostitutes for an all-night bender.

Now, the movie's a comedy, and as such it was all exaggerated for effect. But there's some real truth in that "are you ready to be a MAN" scene, because for too many boys today, that's exactly what they imagine "being a man" to be. Who's standing up and telling them otherwise? There are plenty of women who are mentoring girls, trying to set good examples and provide honest role models, but who's doing that for boys? *Is* anyone?

 

[Feraud]

There are plenty of women who are mentoring girls, trying to set good examples and provide honest role models, but who's doing that for boys? *Is* anyone?

Yes, there are plenty of men doing just that but we are not standing up screaming how "manly" we are like those morons on screen.
We don't get press for raising respectable conservative young men. We don't blog or Tweet about how much time we spend taking the boys to scout meetings, school, telling them to make their beds, take out the trash, cleaning up around the house. There are no Instagram photos of Facebook profiles trying to prove our worth.
Real fathers are invisible men society.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's time that changed. Real men -- fathers or not -- need to stand up and be counted.

 

[rue]

Anybody what picks on LoHa gets shown the door, toot-suite - and will probably be carried out on that door by the other patrons.

(nice to see you, kiddo)

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap
You tell em dad

 

[LolitaHaze]

There are plenty of women who are mentoring girls, trying to set good examples and provide honest role models, but who's doing that for boys? *Is* anyone?

Judge Joe Brown. Man Up! Take care of Business!

 

[jamespowers]

Yes, there are plenty of men doing just that but we are not standing up screaming how "manly" we are like those morons on screen.
We don't get press for raising respectable conservative young men. We don't blog or Tweet about how much time we spend taking the boys to scout meetings, school, telling them to make their beds, take out the trash, cleaning up around the house. There are no Instagram photos of Facebook profiles trying to prove our worth.
Real fathers are invisible men society.

Amen! There are plenty of us exerting our influence every day without worrying about press and accolades. It is just what we do.

 

[sheeplady]

I'm pretty sure what I'm going to write next is going to come out wrong, but I'll try and phrase it the best that I can. I do think that many men have tried to stand up and motivate other men, but the mainstream media has no interest in showcasing their efforts, except to cast them in a light that makes them look crazy. For instance, Bill Cosby has long been an advocate for males becoming men, especially in the case of fatherhood; but he's often portrayed to be apologist for racist whites. He very well may be an apologist, and I honestly haven't followed his work closely enough to make a sound determination for myself, but he is trying to make a case for men standing up and being present regardless of his views on race.

And he's Bill Cosby- a man that had his own TV show for *years.* Grassroots men who are doing stuff in their communities will never get his press coverage. Whereas I think many women will read with deep interest a story about promoting young women from a grassroots level, an article on young men will never get the readership. I'm not sure if it's because society at large doesn't see a problem, doesn't want to admit there is one, or that they're afraid that admitting their is a problem with male culture and expending effort to solve it somehow negates or detracts from the struggles women and others face. That's if the article would ever be published.

 

[Flicka]

I'm not a man, but I was thinking only yesterday after reading through this thread again that I am going to do my utmost to make sure that my godson and nephew grows up into the right sort of man. Knowing my sister, he probably will, but I really feel a responsibility for doing my bit (he's only 1, so we have plenty of time).

 

[William Stratford]

It is certainly the case and certainly sad, that some fathers are no more than little boys themselves. However, to define what it is to be a man by parenthood, something any animal can manage, is questionable at best. Epitome? Many, many of us make an active, informed choice not to become parents. Others are unable. Neither group are any more nor less "men" for that choice or circumstance.

Yes, the epitome. Fatherhood (as I said) is the key means by which boys become men. Which is not the same as getting some woman pregnant; a man who gets a woman pregnant and then walks away is no father - rather fatherhood is a role, often lost in the modern world (with its obsession with the freedom, economic activity and pleasure of the individual), about the raising of the next generation. So long as the role of the father remains under attack you will see generations of boys failing to grow into men.

I've said it before and I will say it again; the chief failure of feminism is in 'empowering' ladies to behave like "ladettes" rather than encouraging "lads" to behave like gentlemen - slipping down to a lowest common denominator rather than raising standards to an new (old?) high.

 

[Drappa]

^Why don't you let feminists themselves or indeed women and girls decide what the supposed "chief failure of feminism" has been? Still having people like you tell women how they should behave and think on a regular basis (and thinking that is morally superior, clever and helpful) is one of the main failures of humanity for me.
There is so much rudeness and nonsense in this thread, from judgements about so-called strippers and non-fathers to moral relativism it once again confirms my feeling that women FLoungers are welcome in the Powder Room mostly. Sheesh.

Also, how exactly is the role of Father under attack? Who is attacking? I know plenty of young, warm, kind fathers who take delight and an active role in their childrens' lives. Some of them even (shock-horror) take long paternity leaves and don't believe in hitting their children to teach them a lesson. Those who abandon their children have always existed, through all layers of society.

 

[William Stratford]

^Why don't you let feminists themselves or indeed women and girls decide what the supposed "chief failure of feminism" has been? Still having people like you tell women how they should behave and think on a regular basis (and thinking that is morally superior, clever and helpful) is one of the main failures of humanity for me.
There is so much rudeness and nonsense in this thread, from judgements about so-called strippers and non-fathers to moral relativism it once again confirms my feeling that women FLoungers are welcome in the Powder Room mostly. Sheesh.

Since when is it rude to tell people that something is wrong or has failed, or to criticise as debauched some kinds of behaviour? Since when has a man's opinion been worth less than a womans? It seems acceptable to criticise men but if you criticise the acts of women all of a sudden its unacceptable?

This is rapidly getting silly.

 

[Drappa]

You don't need to be so melodramatic. Nobody said a man's opinion was worth less. There are however issues that affect mainly or exclusively women, so in that instance it is a moot point to tell them how useful or failed something is.
I'd say as of recently, thanks to feminism, is it considered rude to make women feel subhuman for their choice of profession or for how much flesh they expose. You still can't discuss a woman being raped without someone or other suggesting it was due to their provocative clothing or that they were somehow "asking" for it. Perhaps if people stopped blaming the prostitutes, strippers, performers and so on for the "debauchery" and instead focussed on the people who see it as a chance to maintain unfair power relations, there would be lessof a problem. This doesn't include those who can take in a burlesque show without hollering, feeling superior to the performers or scum who abuse prostitutes because they can and because society generally tends to view them as "less".
You could of course argue that there will always be unfair power relations between the consumer and the consumed, but it didn't seem like this was the debate. It sounded like a woman's worth was based on how much she wears, and that is not only rude, it's outright inhumane.

 

[William Stratford]

You don't need to be so melodramatic. Nobody said a man's opinion was worth less.

Actually it has been implied a couple of times, and the amount of passive aggression on this is subject quite shocking, so please, no more nonsense about "melodrama".

I'd say as of recently, thanks to feminism, is it considered rude to make women feel subhuman for their choice of profession or for how much flesh they expose.

So now it is rude to call stripping debauched, or to say that it is part of reducing women to sexual objects? This is going from silly to truly bizarre.

You still can't discuss a woman being raped without someone or other suggesting it was due to their provocative clothing or that they were somehow "asking" for it.

Strawman, nobody has mentioned anything like that here.

You could of course argue that there will always be unfair power relations between the consumer and the consumed, but it didn't seem like this was the debate. It sounded like a woman's worth was based on how much she wears, and that is not only rude, it's outright inhumane.

A person, whether male or female, is reduced by the act of stripping (as I have said from the start).

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

A person, whether male or female, is reduced by the act of stripping (as I have said from the start).

I happen to know some people in the Burlesque scene and they are not objects but nice individuals. It's just (semi) nudity. No big deal. Most of them who I met have a strong personality and don't give the audience the impression that they are WEAK and easily avaivable. Quite on the contrary they play with the concept: I just show as much as I was to. Men can't touch and can't tell me what to do.
They are in charge when they are on the stage. They don't degrade themselves to sex slaves.

And they have FUN playing the role they choose to. It all sounds so bitter in this thread but there are actually people enjoying this.

 

[William Stratford]

I happen to know some people in the Burlesque scene and they are not objects but nice individuals. It's just (semi) nudity. No big deal. Most of them who I met have a strong personality and don't give the audience that they are WEAK and easily avaivable. Quite on the contrary they play with the concept: I just show as much as I was to. Men can't touch and can't tell me what to do.

They are in charge when they are on the stage. They don't degrade themselves to sex slaves.

No one has said "sex slaves" either. It would help if people did not expand what is being said.

I guess we are going to have to agree to differ on this though, as it seems some will always find excuses for certain behaviour.

 

[Flicka]

So now it is rude to call stripping debauched, or to say that it is part of reducing women to sexual objects? This is going from silly to truly bizarre.

If I were to call what you are saying "silly" or "truly bizarre", would you find me rude? I think quite a lot of people would.

A person, whether male or female, is reduced by the act of stripping (as I have said from the start).

I disagree. To me, the problem is when others think of them as reduced because they take off their clothes, or simply for being women. That's what objectifying means to me.

 

[William Stratford]

If I were to call what you are saying "silly" or "truly bizarre", would you find me rude? I think quite a lot of people would.

Not unless I was being quite mindboggliingly prissy.

 

[Flicka]

Not unless I was being quite mindboggliingly prissy.

Well, then suspect your standards are quite lower than mine.

 

[William Stratford]

Well, then suspect your standards are quite lower than mine.

Somehow, I doubt that.