Thread

[Sly]

Good day to you all -

I wonder if some of the more informed members might be able to shed light (excuse the pun) on the mystery of WW2 era thread which glows under UV light. I've received contradictory information saying a) there was no thread that glowed b) US made clothing often had glowing thread.

What is true? I have an AirForce jacket, which I'm 99.9% sure is genuine, and it has numerous patches with thread that glows under UV light. Any thoughts?

L8rs

 

[BellyTank]

Maybe silk...
Maybe later patches.

B
T

 

[nightandthecity]

you can be 99% sure it means the thread is artificial fibre and thus almost certainly post war. If the patches don't glow they are probably genuine.

The odds are that a genuine jacket has had genuine patches added at a later date. Unfortunately this happens all the time. Sometimes it's unscrupulous dealers who do it, sometimes it's over-enthusiatsic collectors and re-enactors who do it.

 

[Sly]

Maybe silk...
Maybe later patches.

B
T

Thanks -

So silk glows?

To be clear it's not the patches themselves that glow, they're multi-piece leather, or the stitching which holds the multiple pieces together - it the stitching attaching the patches to the jacket that glows.

 

[Sly]

you can be 99% sure it means the thread is artificial fibre and thus almost certainly post war.

This is what i don't understand, 50% of people say this is the case whereas the remainder say synthetic threads were not uncommon, especially at the end of the war? Confused.

 

[nightandthecity]

On reflection, 99% certain is an extreme statement - a thinking person shouldn’t be that certain of anything! Let’s just say I am fairly sure, but not absolutely certain, on this. I’ll explain my evidence and reasoning.

First, let me say I have been a collector and dealer in both civilian vintage and WW2 aeronautica for many years. While my vintage has been mostly British, I have had an awful lot of WW2 US militaria through my hands, especially USAAF gear.

It also has to be said that I don’t have a UV lamp. It’s one of these things I’ve never quite got round to buying. But I have regularly performed the burn test on a wide variety of items, and I almost always do it on the thread used to patch WW2 military items.

With those WW2 US items on which I had every reason to be confident the patches were original to the item, I have never, ever, had a synthetic fibre result on the thread used. For example, items straight from veterans.

I have had a synthetic fibre result only on items without good provenance.

I have had dozens of WW2 US Army sewing kits through my hands, I have never seen synthetic thread in any of them.

I have had many industrial size spools of WW2 US military thread through my hands - all were cotton

In the days when I did a lot of repairs I always used to check out old thread in flea markets, and buy the stuff I could be sure was 1940s. I don’t think I ever found a reel that was synthetic older than 1960s.

Of those vintage items of which I could be sure of the date, and which I have tested the thread used in the construction, no pre-1950s item has tested as using synthetic thread. However, this has mostly been British menswear, which may not be typical. And I haven’t done any rigorous testing and research on this, its been fairly random. Plus there have been a few marginal cases - items which I would have guessed were 1940s but had some artificial content. But I repeat, I have never found anything that I definitely knew to be 1940s to have used synthetic thread.

As for US military gear, it is usually dated, which removes one of the main reasons for testing! Even so, I have tested a certain amount of US military gear, and found none using synthetic thread in the construction before 1952.

Against this, it certainly seems likely that synthetic thread existed in the 1940s (possibly nylon parachutes used nylon thread?) - though I have never seen definite proof even of this. If it was around I would expect it to be more common in American than British clothing, and in womens rather than mens, and US womens wear is something I have had little exprience of.

So, as I said, the odds are that the patches were added to your jacket later. However, I do recommend you do the burn test, and don’t just rely on UV, I believe things like the presence of detergents can make natural fibres glow.

Hope I haven't depressed you!

 

[Sly]

Hope I haven't depressed you!

No, not at all depressed, just informed! I thank you for taking the time to explain the situation. Exactly what I was after. I did the burn test and seems the thread is natural fiber, not synthetic, but it does still glow. Another response above mentioned silk as a natural fibre which glows - anybody know why that it?

All the best!

 

[nightandthecity]

well, that's good news (the burn test I mean)!

I've always understood that the burn test is more reliable. I've heard that things like traces of detergent can make cotton glow.

I don't know about silk. But I'm now wondering about viscose/rayon which is made from wood pulp and is only a semi-synthetic - it has many of the properties of a natural fibre. I know it burns like natural, but I wouldn't be surprised if it glows under UV. It was widely used in making patches, but I'm not sure about the existance or use of rayon thead.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

by the smell of the burning thread, you'll be able to tell the difference between silk/cotton and rayon/other wood pulp stuffs. The wood pulp stuff will smell like burning paper, the silk/cotton/wool will smell like burning hair: Unmistakable.

bk

 

[The Wingnut]

I should add that synthetic fiber, after having burned and cooled, will have - by feel - a tiny 'bulb' of melted material at the end of the strands. Grab the strands and pull - gently - and if it's synthetic, you should feel a tiny lump pass between your fingers as you reach the ends.

 

[MrBern]

black light test

http://antiques.about.com/od/resourcesforbeginners/tp/aa122205.htm
Top 6 Ways to Test Antiques & Collectibles with a Black Light

4) Testing Ephemera

Old postcards, books, signs, photos and other paper products made before the late 1930s rarely glow under a black light. However, chemical bleaches and dyes used in modern papers will fluoresce under ultraviolet light. Knowing this helps to detect forged documents and distinquish reproductions in all types of ephemera. Before purchasing a rare paper memorabilia, however, have it examined by an expert who will have knowledge and tools beyond black light testing to aid in authentication.

5) Dating Textiles

Many modern fibers like rayon and polyester, including sewing tread, will fluoresce under a black light. This helps to date quilts, vintage clothing, stuffed animals, rag dolls and other items made using cloth. However, additives in modern laundry detergents can cause old fabrics to glow under ultraviolet light if they were cleaned with these products. It’s wise to consider manufacturing techniques, design, provenance and materials used in construction in addition to black light exam results.