Thompson M1A1

[Diamondback]

Personally, having fired a full-auto Thompson and handled a long-barrel semi greasegun, I preferred the heavier gun even with its weight. In war, anything can and does happen, and if I'm in CQC and need to smack the crap out of Sauerkraut*, the Thompson's more likely to deliver satisfactory "terminal performance" as a club--the greasegun I'd expect to be bent beyond use by such impact, while the Thompson would just be a little dinged-up on the outside.

 

[Twitch]

I find it curious that aeveryone doesn't know that the forged metal Thompson is a superior made weapon. The grease gun was stamped metal with the idea of speed of manufacture as a primary thing. Didn't matter if it didn't last as there were lots more in inventory to replace it.

Rate of fire of full auto is one of things that armchair generals use to "prove" superiority of one weapon over another when in combat it means almost noting on the sub-machine gun or auto rifle categories.

Rounds in combat are like gold and you snap off 2-3 round bursts and do a lot of semi-auto firing for the most part. I have only seen 1 or 2 accurate depictions of how professionals actually expend ammo since I experienced it in 1970. All the TV and cinema is just fake spraying of mags of ammo about when no one did that or does that now except in extreme cases.

If you believe the Hollywood stuff these guys would cook off in 15 minutes what you'd normally use in 2 weeks on patrol in the bush. I'm not talking about big confrontations, seiges or battles but the squad or half the squad sized unit with a max of 400 rounds in 20 mags out on a 2 week junket. They do not spray the countryside because there is no way to get resupplied!

Fixed position firefights in a trench mentality scenario is the only way firepower makes any small difference. 1st because of plenty of stockpiled ammo on the static position or the assaulters which they've brought up. And then it's gonna be more of a M2 vs. MG 42 rate of fire in a belt fed machine gun versus machinegun and or machine gun versus infantry. Rate of fire out of a 20 round mag is insignificant relative to all things.

A Thompson M1A1 cycled at about 700RPM while the M3 ran about 350-450RPM. You can devide those RPMs by 60 seconds and see how little full auto firing time a 20 round mag has.

 

[AeroDillo]

Mmmm....Thompson goodness....

 

[Jovan]

Twitch: Were the 20 round mags the most common?

 

[AeroDillo]

I think the 20-rd was about the only stick available until up around 1943 or so.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

We were issued one Grease Gun per tank, so it didn't matter what it weighed because I didn't have to carry it . I think it's perfect in an Armor role with the folding stock, that's why we didn't get M-16s. It would be pretty tough to get in and out of the tank in a hurry with something that long.

 

[Mojave Jack]

Then, just as now, the T/O weapon was driven by the billet, not the rank. As Stovall notes, tankers were issued SMGs for maneuverability and to save on space in the tank. Privates in a tank carried (as necessary) the M3, while the infantry sergeant alongside his tank carried an M1. Senior NCOs and Officers are typically in a leadership role, and should be doing more directing than fighting, hence they are issued a short range, less cumbersome weapon, either a sidearm or an SMG.

 

[SamMarlowPI]

the difference between a 1921 and a 1928 Thompson?

 

[AeroDillo]

Rate of fire mostly, but with a few aesthetic adjustments between models.

 

[Ecuador Jim]

There were two BAR men in a squad? I thought there was only one. Then again, that makes sense considering the BAR's low ammo capacity compared to what today's automatic riflemen carry.

Actually, the Army used a single BAR man per squad. The Marines thought that was light, and assigned two BAR men per squad. I don't know, but the Army may have adopted that concept later in the war.

 

[SamMarlowPI]

even though it was short 20-round clip, the BAR man still had 12 in his belt..that's a pretty good amount of ammo...i wonder if you can get longer clips for the BAR now...?

 

[eightbore]

even though it was short 20-round clip, the BAR man still had 12 in his belt..that's a pretty good amount of ammo...i wonder if you can get longer clips for the BAR now...?

...and hence the rise of the m14.....BAR power in a more man-portable package. The evolution of battle rifles, SMGs, and pistols is a fascinating topic. God bless Browning and Garand!

 

[SamMarlowPI]

...and hence the rise of the m14.....BAR power in a more man-portable package. The evolution of battle rifles, SMGs, and pistols is a fascinating topic. God bless Browning and Garand!

yah it sure is...i was just curious if you can get longer clips for the BAR nowadays...or even custom made...

 

[Twitch]

How is anyone able to legally obtain larger than federally specified mags?

The Thompson M1 could not handle a 50 round drum. Prior models could. They came out with a 30 round mag to somewhat compensate.

The model 21A handled not only the 50 but a 100 round drum as well. The M3 later had 30 round clips too.

 

[eightbore]

How is anyone able to legally obtain larger than federally specified mags?

There is no longer any such thing as the Assault Weapons Ban has sunset. State and local regs can still apply however and, by your locale, it looks like you are in that boat unfrotunately.

Best,

eightbore

 

[Diamondback]

How is anyone able to legally obtain larger than federally specified mags?

OT but related: Twitch, you shoulda seen the "Can The Ban" parties a lot of us shooters threw. Many of us actually counted down the final few hours to expiration of the Federal ban back in '04...

 

[AeroDillo]

It was a wonderful thing, seeing the ban go. Now if we could just be rid of all the leftovers that resulted.

I mean, really - who wants a five-round mag for an M1 Carbine?

Blasphemy, I say.

 

[Story]

seems to me they were only issued to Lieutenants and higher...is that correct?

You'd probably enjoy looking at some TO&Es (Tables of Organization & Equipment), like this Polish translation of that for a Ranger Company
http://www.2nd-rangers.eu/tableoforg1.htm
While Ranger units were somewhat a-typical, you're correct in surmising that Thompsons were limited-issue in infantry units. However, you can also read plenty of accounts where casualties were higher amongst senior NCOs and officers. This left 'spare' weapons to cascade down the ranks as a unit progressed further into a campaign and the surviving leadership re-apportioned weapons as they deemed effective to the unit's success and survival.

What you saw in the KELLY'S HEROS screenplay was a reconnaissance troop
that had access to extra submachineguns and tailored their loadout to the mission: alot of targets at close range that required overwhelming firepower (rather than the longer ranges more suited to the Garand). Remember, it's Hollywood but it has a basis in fact (like this outfit - http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/army/mipb/1996-1/delagius.htm)

As JMStovall mentioned, armor units were different: IIRC each five-man Sherman tank crew had two Thompson submachineguns assigned to it (the co-ax and bow-mounted .30 cal 1919s were supposed to be dismounted if the crew had to bail).

 

[Jovan]

I think I may have seen a picture of a 30 round BAR magazine that was experimented with... but I could be confusing it with the Bren LMG's magazines. Now THAT was an awesome automatic rifle. Looks wise, anyway; big and dangerous. Has anyone handled one in person?

 

[Story]

I think I may have seen a picture of a 30 round BAR magazine that was experimented with... but I could be confusing it with the Bren LMG's magazines.

There's been all sorts of things cooked up by unit armorers (eg; for hip-shooting ), but a 30 round magazine would prevent a BAR gunner from assuming a low-profile prone position (the Bren not having this problem, as it was fed from the top).