This generation of kids...

[Fletch]

I do look at those comments sometimes. I see every flavor of bloodyminded idiot there is - just as many howling for the whoop@ss to be visited on Gen Y as telling the Boss of Us that e isn't.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The difference is that here the grownups can discuss such things reasonably. But that sort of Individual Uber Alles free-for-all is exactly the sort of Lord Of the Flies nonsense you get when there isn't any real respect or regard for authority to keep things in line. You don't miss The Man until he's not there one day and nothing gets accomplished.

 

[Pompidou]

I read the comments section of news websites, and the way people express themselves irritates me. One thing that needs to be taught to every generation is that the truest measure of a person's character isn't how s/he behaves when people are looking, but how s/he behaves when nobody's around. Anonymity makes people into monsters. Lizzie mentioned how this site would be without moderators, and she was right - no arguments there. I think another powerful influence on people's general good behavior on this site is that there's a lot less anonymity, simply by the nature of the subject matter. This place has more photos of its membership than Facebook. A good thing, because it brings accountability. I can't stand anonymous commentary threads on news sites. My IQ dips every time I read them. It would almost be reassuring if the offending content therein was confined to the younger generation, but sadly, it spans all ages.

 

[jamespowers]

But that sort of approach is a far cry from a knee-jerk screeching of "You're Not The Boss Of Me" at the slightest suggestion that the needs of the Almighty Individual are not always supreme. The difference between an adult and a child is that an adult is supposed to understand the difference.

No, now. Quit making fun of the thirty year olds living in their mother's basement.

 

[CharlieB]

I'm glad my youngest is through college. A buddy of mine that has a 10 year old told me that her teacher said they might discontinue teaching cursive writing because "no one uses it anymore".

I work in our local historical society library/archives. If I couldn't read cursive, a lot of documents would be as good to me as if they were written in a foreign language. Somethings are just worth passing on.

 

[Widebrim]

Dressing well is respecting others as you do yourself. In many european countries it os an affront to arrived dressed like a bum when invited for dinner. It is a sign of respect to arrive dressed well as if you were going to meet the king.
Respect is shown to older people by addressing them formally. Adress them by their title and they will feel respected rather than put upon by some upstart thinking they can call them by their first name like they went to high school together.

Thank you. It especially irks me when a representative of a company (phone or in person) immediately calls me by my first name. It's not that I demand to always be addressed by my last name, but I want to be the one who makes the decision to let the other person be less formal with me (especially when s/he doesn't know me at all).

 

[jamespowers]

Thank you. It especially irks me when a representative of a company (phone or in person) immediately calls me by my first name. It's not that I demand to always be addressed by my last name, but I want to be the one who makes the decision to let the other person be less formal with me (especially when s/he doesn't know me at all).

Showing respect these days is like an endangered species---some times you might see one if you wait long enough.

 

[Pompidou]

Thank you. It especially irks me when a representative of a company (phone or in person) immediately calls me by my first name. It's not that I demand to always be addressed by my last name, but I want to be the one who makes the decision to let the other person be less formal with me (especially when s/he doesn't know me at all).

Here's my logic: Almost everyone says, "Please, call me (by my first name/nickname)". For years, I would call people by the name I knew they were going to correct me on, just for the sake of it. Almost like, "Hello, Mr. Powers." "Please, call me Jim." "I would've, but I had to make you say it first." If the majority of the people I came across preferred long formal address, I would do so. I'm just getting rid of the middle man, so to speak. I forgot if it was Einstein or Twain, but one of them said, "The definition of insanity is doing something over and over, expecting different results." For years, I was insane. Now, I'm only wrong once in a while. Calling a person by their preferred greeting the first time seems like the better way to go than sticking to formal and getting corrected 9/10 times. I know I'm not right, not by the official rules, but it seems to work.

One example that's come up pretty recently is my shopping around for general liability insurance for my upcoming café. I went to a company that does the shopping for you, and got in touch with a representative. The back and forth went something like: "Good afternoon, Mr. Turpin," and then a blurb, signing off with a business card style info block. I'd reply, "Hey Jess," and a blurb. I'd even sign off with something like "Best regards, Matt". Then the followup would be, "Good evening, Mr. Turpin." I sighed a little bit.

I sigh a bit inside when a person calls me Sir. Flattered a little, maybe, but not worthy of anyone's deference. I'm better than nobody. I think informal keeps us all grounded and equal.

 

[jamespowers]

Here's my logic: Almost everyone says, "Please, call me (by my first name/nickname)". For years, I would call people by the name I knew they were going to correct me on, just for the sake of it. Almost like, "Hello, Mr. Powers." "Please, call me Jim." "I would've, but I had to make you say it first." If the majority of the people I came across preferred long formal address, I would do so. I'm just getting rid of the middle man, so to speak. I forgot if it was Einstein or Twain, but one of them said, "The definition of insanity is doing something over and over, expecting different results." For years, I was insane. Now, I'm only wrong once in a while. Calling a person by their preferred greeting the first time seems like the better way to go than sticking to formal and getting corrected 9/10 times. I know I'm not right, not by the official rules, but it seems to work.

One example that's come up pretty recently is my shopping around for general liability insurance for my upcoming café. I went to a company that does the shopping for you, and got in touch with a representative. The back and forth went something like: "Good afternoon, Mr. Turpin," and then a blurb, signing off with a business card style info block. I'd reply, "Hey Jess," and a blurb. I'd even sign off with something like "Best regards, Matt". Then the followup would be, "Good evening, Mr. Turpin." I sighed a little bit.

I sigh quite a bit inside when a person calls me Sir. Flattered a little, maybe, but not worthy of anyone's deference. I'm better than nobody. I think informal keeps us all grounded and equal.

Actually the opposite is true. formal keeps us all equal---at the top of the heap instead of at the bottom. Even the garbageman is still Mr. Fonseca and not Gil or Sal. That is why the respect denoted by the formal is still the rule and not the exception.
Oh and I am Mr. Powers to most---yes, especially amongst my son's friends.

 

[24hourteaparty]

I was in shock this year. The school board said waking up so early was difficult for teenagers, so the start time for each day is now pushed back an hour. School doesn't start until nearly 9am now. I could deal with that if they stayed open an extra hour, but its only an extra 15 minutes. Where'd that 45 minutes span of supposed education go?

And waking up is difficult for teenagers? Seriously? Not with a well-placed boot.

I am a teenager and I can tell you it is very hard to get up early. Its in our nature to stay up late. I cannot go to bed before midnight, it will not happen. If I go to bed early I will just lay there for hours.


And I have read that schools with later hours have less student car crashes

I'm lucky I do school online so I can wake up whenever I choose.

Zoe

 

[Foofoogal]

I'm glad my youngest is through college. A buddy of mine that has a 10 year old told me that her teacher said they might discontinue teaching cursive writing because "no one uses it anymore".

I work in our local historical society library/archives. If I couldn't read cursive, a lot of documents would be as good to me as if they were written in a foreign language. Somethings are just worth passing on.
-------------------------
Welcome. We have a whole thread about the loss of cursive writing somewhere on the FL but I never considered document reading. That is a concern. Interesting.

Off topic...

 

[Feraud]

I am a teenager and I can tell you it is very hard to get up early. Its in our nature to stay up late. I cannot go to bed before midnight, it will not happen. If I go to bed early I will just lay there for hours.


And I have read that schools with later hours have less student car crashes

I'm lucky I do school online so I can wake up whenever I choose.

Zoe

I don't think it's a teenage issue to have odd sleeping hours. Many adults also reflect this type. Baron Kurtz has made some very insightful comments on the nature of sleep patterns.

Another example of a teenager is my 16 yr. old. He goes to be every evening at 9 p.m. and wakes up at 6 a.m. on his own to get ready for school. He has more or less always been on this schedule and is currently reaping the benefits of it.

In my own non-scientific observation I notice many parents make little effort to teach their children good sleep habits. Pre-teens are allowed to go to bed..whenever. Every morning their parents all gripe about how they cannot get their child up and ready for school, etc.

I don't like the idea of finding an answer to the problem being to cater to the problem iteself.

 

[LittleMissPussyCat]

I work with children aged 1-9 years and volunteer with children aged 10-18 years.

My observations on sleeping patterns are that generally it is the parents not encouraging good bed time practices, sensible bedtimes, no TV computers etc in bed, and generally going to sleep at a sensible time in a state of rest rather than excitement from a game or TV programme enables children to get up bright and fresh.

As for manners, my youngest is a real gentleman, he carries my bags, always opens doors for me and others, stands to give up his seat for ladies. However he really gets a thank you from other people and in some cases gets snapped at for holding open doors, recently a gentleman (and I use the term to describe a male, rather than a true gentleman) in a wheelchair snapped at my son for holding a door, he said "I might be in a chair, but I can open doors". I am sad to say I was too shocked to challenge him.

I think we as adults could do a lot to help children develop good manners, as most children love to feel appreciated and to help. Two of the little girls I look after (aged 3 and 4) often fight over who is going to open a door.

The children I care for and my son always say good morning/afternoon to older people we pass in the street, and this always provokes a smile and often a conversation. My son also doughs his headwear for ladies.

 

[Yeps]

I don't think it's a teenage issue to have odd sleeping hours. Many adults also reflect this type. Baron Kurtz has made some very insightful comments on the nature of sleep patterns.

Another example of a teenager is my 16 yr. old. He goes to be every evening at 9 p.m. and wakes up at 6 a.m. on his own to get ready for school. He has more or less always been on this schedule and is currently reaping the benefits of it.

In my own non-scientific observation I notice many parents make little effort to teach their children good sleep habits. Pre-teens are allowed to go to bed..whenever. Every morning their parents all gripe about how they cannot get their child up and ready for school, etc.

I don't like the idea of finding an answer to the problem being to cater to the problem iteself.

I like the idea of going to sleep early, except for regularly (and since high school) having rehearsal until ten or eleven at night. Follow that up with homework and a proper sleep schedule is hard to maintain.

That said, I prefer nighttime to morning. Who knows, maybe if I woke up predawn it would be different, but I like late night (and late afternoon).

 

[LittleMissPussyCat]

I like the idea of going to sleep early, except for regularly (and since high school) having rehearsal until ten or eleven at night. Follow that up with homework and a proper sleep schedule is hard to maintain.

That said, I prefer nighttime to morning. Who knows, maybe if I woke up predawn it would be different, but I like late night (and late afternoon).

I know its not always easy, but I think a lot of parents could do more. How often do you hear statements like well he doesn't sleep as he is on his games console half the night and he wont turn it off", well take it out his room then.

 

[AmateisGal]

Well, for my chapter I'd just point out that we live in a *society.* No one, unless they live in a cave on top of a mountain somewhere, drinking rainwater and eating leaves and grubs, is truly a 100 percent Free And Independent Individual with no obligation to that society. And if we do live in a society, that society has to have rules and order and authority in order to function properly. Anarchy is a revenge fantasy for adolescents who never got over being potty-trained, not a functional blueprint for a viable civilization -- never has been, never will be.

In every human Utopia that's ever been attempted, The Man has eventually manifested himself and taken over. He runs the most advanced civilization and he runs the most primitive tribe. There's no way to ever get rid of him -- because he's part of who we are as a species. That's why the only reasonable thing to do is to learn to live with The Man. He was there before we got here, and he'll be here long after we're gone, and it does none of us any good to pretend otherwise. Oh, sure, every century or so some society has a revolution and proclaims a New Order -- but that always turns out to be nothing more than The Man in a different uniform. Every generation of kids thinks they're being radical and rebellious and are going to be the ones to throw The Man over -- but before they know what hit them, The Man is selling them their music and their clothes and their coffee and their revenge fantasies -- and laughing at them behind their backs. And they get a few years older, and suddenly, The Man makes them an offer they can't refuse -- and eventually they *become* The Man, while their own kids mumble and grouse about what fascist pigs they are.

In short, there are rules and laws and order because we've proven ourselves completely incapable of interacting productively with each other without them, and because there's an instinctive strain in humanity that demands that order. Even the Lounge itself is an example of this -- people can fuss and wail about the Mean Old Bartenders all they want, but if we weren't here, this place would be just another online toilet full of Viagra spam and HAHAHA U SUK postings.

That may be too close to "Because that's the way it is" to satisfy the earnest probers amongst us, but sorry -- that really *is* the way it is, and pretending it isn't is just a really pointless way to spend your time. You can spend your whole life trying to fight it, like Sisyphus rolling his rock up the hill, but keep in mind Sisyphus didn't end up very happy.

Lizzie, this is the most well-thought out, solid, and logical commentary on society that I've ever seen. Well done.

 

[Undertow]

So far I've seen 3 topics that would need to be addressed:
1. An individual's self-presentation (grooming)
2. An individual addresses others
3. An individual's role in society

Any others? Fletch, do you have any topics you believe should be addressed? Any specific manner in addressing them?

 

[jamespowers]

I know its not always easy, but I think a lot of parents could do more. How often do you hear statements like well he doesn't sleep as he is on his games console half the night and he wont turn it off", well take it out his room then.

It is the parents in most cases. My son goes to bed on time because he knows that I will be waking him up at 6am whether he likes it or not.
Waking up dressed in the shower usually works the first time.
He gets dressed and goes to bed on his own because he knows he can wake up on his own if he goes to bed early.

 

[Fletch]

So far I've seen 3 topics that would need to be addressed:
1. An individual's self-presentation (grooming)
2. An individual addresses others
3. An individual's role in society

Any others? Fletch, do you have any topics you believe should be addressed? Any specific manner in addressing them?

Role in society is a biiiiig one. Might have to break it down...
3a. Individual as part of society: benefits and costs
3b. Individual as not part of society: benefits and costs
3c. Negotiating your own boundaries with society
3d. Morés vs. morality: what's right vs what's conventional
...and like that.

The next section could be the responsibilities vs the rights of the individual - another big one.

I'd also add a section about perspectives on authority - something I feel a lot of us never really see in more than one way. Even those who defend it often do so cynically. Ideally we'd encourage skepticism more than cynicism.

The difficulty: we are eager to criticize or praise individual authority figures, but we're very reluctant to examine our beliefs about authority in general.

One question might be, "Soldiers must behave strictly because they're in a life-or-death situation. Must athletes? employees? students? How much authority is needed in different situations and why?"

 

[Tango Yankee]

It doesn't let us have our cake and eat it the way we can with "tough love" (which is not love, but toughness in the name of love).

The thing about "tough love" that most people don't get is that the "tough" part isn't that it's tough on the receipient, it's tough on the provider. It is not easy for a parent to take a stand and stick with it, especially when it means not rescuing your child from their own folly so they may learn the lesson of consequences. It can be a difficult and painful path to take, especially when one's instinct is to do whatever you can to protect your child--even from themselves.

Regards,
Tom