This generation of kids...

[LizzieMaine]

Precisely. I can't say when the change came about, but parents gradually shifted from hard-nosed folks to these loving, caring, cloying people who allow all sorts of disrespectful behavior and laziness to take place...

It's one thing to be really strict, it's an entirely different thing to allow your child to grow up.

The thing that really brought this to my attention was an incident that happened just a couple weeks ago. We were hosting a sold-out concert by a popular NPR-type musical group (The Wailin Jennys, to be specific), and all seats were general admission -- you sit where you can find a seat, and no guarantees for anyone. This family arrived just before showtime, a dad, a mom, and a boy about thirteen years old -- and they couldn't find three seats together. The mother came to me in a literal panic -- wide eyed, short of breath, the whole bit -- *demanding* that I tell someone to move so that the three of them could sit together. "We don't ALLOW him to sit by himself," she insisted. Now, if the kid was five years old I might have done it -- but I don't care how doting a parent you are, if you aren't willing to let a thirteen year old boy sit by himself at a concert populated almost entirely by fifty-year-old NPR listeners, in a small town, in a building that only seats 350, then you're living in a world I can't begin to comprehend. I don't know what they ended up doing, after I told them there was nothing I could do, but I suspect they either slipped some guy a fifty to get him to give up his seat, or had the kid sit on their lap. Either way, I just shake my head in amazement.

The kid, meanwhile, literally trembled when I looked at him, like the runt in a litter of underfed puppies. I suspect unhappy days await him in high school.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

he he he. My lab collaborates with the guy that started all this. "Top brain doctor" is going a bit far, but he is a very distinguished Fellow of the Royal Society. Honestly, though, he has a point. There are owls (are more active/learn best later in the day) and there are larks (morning types). Currently the system favours larks, who actually happen to be the majority. I think that anything we can do to aid the learning process is a no-brainer - a good thing. This will require a personalised schooling curriculum and a school day that best fits the individual chronotype. Making everyone start later will just discriminate against a different group, and make nothing better. Who knows how many people have fallen through the cracks for something so simple as they don't learn well at some times of day. "Traditional school times did me fine" simply doesn't cut it. We now recognise that there are various barriers to attaining "learning". There's a thread somewheres about recently about kids who "are not being challenged enough". Maybe people - like me - who don't do well in the mornings are being spectacularly badly served by the system as currently set up. Again, "I was fine", lazy kids knee jerking simply isn't good enough. And neither is knee jerking reactions to any small changes in how school holidays etc. are run. Change isn't always bad, guys.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23381421-making-teens-start-school-in-the-morning-is-cruel-brain-doctor-claims.do

I was in shock this year. The school board said waking up so early was difficult for teenagers, so the start time for each day is now pushed back an hour. School doesn't start until nearly 9am now. I could deal with that if they stayed open an extra hour, but its only an extra 15 minutes. Where'd that 45 minutes span of supposed education go?

And waking up is difficult for teenagers? Seriously? Not with a well-placed boot.

 

[Mid-fogey]

I hope I don't...

…disturb the harrumph-fest.

The school year and day in the United States, with some variation, has been 180 days for a very long time. Some districts start and end earlier and this makes the opportunity to have more days off for Thanksgiving, Easter, etc. As far as the length of the school day is concerned, I’d say the bigger issue is what the young people study and how they study it, vice how long they are at it, although time does matter.

I must occupy some sort of alternative universe. I find the school my daughter (she’s 11) attended has worked hard to give the children a quality education, working around the constraints they have to deal with. I have often been surprised by the advanced work they get, and the things she knows.

I have found her friends and classmates to be sweet , good natured children who are eager to please and sincerely want to do the right thing. I have seen behavior I didn’t approve of, but in every case I could clearly see the reasons, which in most cases were timeless.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

You got that right. Look at California. jp i'm absolutely certain has something to say about that!!

I am not sure that funding can make up for the lack of desire to learn.

 

[Mid-fogey]

There...

...Making everyone start later will just discriminate against a different group, ...[/URL]

...has been other research that show that all teens actually need more sleep. One perverse thing in many US schools is a bus routing schedule that picks up high school students first, middle school students second, and elementary school students third. The idea is that high school students have to be done earlier for after school extracurricular activities. Talk about the cart driving the horse! This is the reverse order of when the young people are up and active. Nearly any parent will tell you the little ones are up early.

 

[Puzzicato]

I always started school at 8.45 - I think my education was perfectly fine. [huh]

It was an awfully long time ago, but I am pretty sure my school day was 9am - 3.30pm.

 

[scottyrocks]

I've been an educator for 20 years, and a parent for almost 18. I'm divorced and living in my second household with kids. I've been summer camps for 30 years as an adult.

None fo this means that Im an expert. These are just my experiences.

Much of what kids becoming who they are is the kid him/herself. Some kids, no matter what is done to and/or for them, will turn out a certain way, and by that I dont mean that an auto mechanic was always destined to be an auto mechanic, per se. But people have certain tendencies that can be influenced by their upbringing. Nature and nurture.

Generalization is impossibly wrong. 'Schools' and 'parents' arent to blame. Its every influential individual that acts or behaves in a certain way with children that determine, to a large extent, how far in the 'right' direction any given child will go, but only to that child's personal best.

Many children are 'ruined' very early on. As a teacher, I see so many kids every day that seem bent on self destruction. I ask myself, what series of events, that began, perhaps, while the child was in the womb, occurred to produce this little terror that stands (and/or screams, or hits others, or runs around the room, or throws things) before me?

There are so many things that affect children. The biggest one, outside the direct influence of their parents and their own innate being is socio-economic status. There are volumes and volumes of books on this kind of stuff. The point is, there are trends and likelihoods, but nothing is certain, and you cant generalize about a kid or group of kids because of who they are or what they look like.

I havent even begun to touch on the educational system. I'd need about a week to address all those issues. But let's just say that teacher attitude and (lack of) competence is a huge issue, especially in places where its hard to get rid of less than competent teachers.

People love to get on teachers' cases - oh, you work 6 hour days, and have all kinds of time off - thats a load of crap. There is so much that needs to go on behind the scenes and after hours that itd make your head spin.

And then theres the one about how people who have done something else, and most likely failed at it, then become teachers. Well, Ive got news for you, not everyone can be a good teacher. All your good stuff, as well as the bad, comes through loud and clear to the kids almost before you even say a word on the first day. Its not just what you know - its how you handle yourself. The kids, for the most part, see it and respond accordingly.

Of course, this is not true for everyone. Remember my remark earlier about generalizing. The idea is to keep as many as possible as interested an engaged as possible for as long as possible. 100% success, all of the time, is impossible.

 

[Foofoogal]

school was never meant to start before Labor Day anyway.

Absolutely.

This is a funny thread to me and I may get in trouble.

We are not living in the world of 5 years ago. I believe it has a lot to do with economics. School districts are hurting and trying their best to make ends meet.
Life changes constantly and circumstances.
There are still good children and teachers and schools. We just never hear about them.
Coming from one of 11 children I worked hard and had chores my whole life.
We raised 2 very responsible adults and we were strict. I never had as much trouble with other kids as I did other parents telling us how not to do it.
I am privileged to have at least 50 nieces and nephews and countless other children around me. After watching closely have learned it is rarely the children. Adults need to raise children, not sort of adults that want to be their friends. (it never works. Ever)
I will say due to erroneous information people are afraid to even discipline their kids now. That is sad.
Everyone wants structure and children are no different. They want parents that can protect them from themselves sometimes.
-----------
scottyrocks. I do think personality one is born with does determine a lot but also how the personality is handled.
Alcohol and drugs while in the womb play a huge hurdle also. Socio economics play a huge role but much more IMHO environment.
Take a child from a bad city sometimes and put them in the country for example will show a whole different person.

Teachers should be the highest paid profession and hardest to get into then any other at all.

 

[reetpleat]

I was in shock this year. The school board said waking up so early was difficult for teenagers, so the start time for each day is now pushed back an hour. School doesn't start until nearly 9am now. I could deal with that if they stayed open an extra hour, but its only an extra 15 minutes. Where'd that 45 minutes span of supposed education go?

And waking up is difficult for teenagers? Seriously? Not with a well-placed boot.

There is much scientific evidence that the teenage brain works on a different cycle than adults, and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of teaching them to get up early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well. better to let them get to school rested.

 

[reetpleat]

Precisely. I can't say when the change came about, but parents gradually shifted from hard-nosed folks to these loving, caring, cloying people who allow all sorts of disrespectful behavior and laziness to take place.

It's one thing to be really strict, it's an entirely different thing to allow your child to grow up. Do we really need these bike helmets, knee pads, wrist braces and training wheels on every bike, for every kid? If the kid doesn't learn to take a fall now and again, how are they going to handle the real thing? If they start a fight, they'd better finish it. If they talk out of turn, smack them. I'm not saying we should beat up our kids, but unless someone instills discipline, there won't be any at all. [huh]

As for protective gear, it is easy to say until it is your kid who dies in a head injury bike accident. Happens and happened every year.

As for encouraging kids to fight or smacking them, well, don't believe in teaching violence. These days, if an adult kits someone he goes to jail. You don't have to fight back. Why should we expect kids to deal with a problem on their own.

While I do think we need to teach kids more science and math, and have more Rigourous schooling in some ways, I also think this is a case of the later generation just griping about the new generation.

there will always be hard working kids, and lazy kids. And it is mostly the part of the parents, not the schools.

All the people my age I know are raising great kids, in a loving, friendly manner. they seem to be turning out great.

 

[reetpleat]

One thing that is very different today is that by the time I was 8 years old I had a key to the house and was able to be left alone at home while my parents worked. As I understand it today parents go to jail for that. I managed not to burn the house down to the ground in spite of really trying.

Statistically, most juvenile crime and teen pregnancy happens weekdays between 3 and 5.

 

[John in Covina]

Statistically, most juvenile crime and teen pregnancy happens weekdays between 3 and 5.

What is the root of teen pregnancy and juvenile crime though?

At one time the it was more likely that values given to the child thru parenting and perhaps religeous upbringing said: I should not do this because it is bad.

It seems now the self restraint is not a values decision but a question of the risk involved in either getting caught or getting away with it.

 

[John in Covina]

The thing that really brought this to my attention was an incident that happened just a couple weeks ago. We were hosting a sold-out concert by a popular NPR-type musical group (The Wailin Jennys, to be specific), and all seats were general admission -- you sit where you can find a seat, and no guarantees for anyone. This family arrived just before showtime, a dad, a mom, and a boy about thirteen years old -- and they couldn't find three seats together. The mother came to me in a literal panic -- wide eyed, short of breath, the whole bit -- *demanding* that I tell someone to move so that the three of them could sit together. "We don't ALLOW him to sit by himself," she insisted. Now, if the kid was five years old I might have done it -- but I don't care how doting a parent you are, if you aren't willing to let a thirteen year old boy sit by himself at a concert populated almost entirely by fifty-year-old NPR listeners, in a small town, in a building that only seats 350, then you're living in a world I can't begin to comprehend. I don't know what they ended up doing, after I told them there was nothing I could do, but I suspect they either slipped some guy a fifty to get him to give up his seat, or had the kid sit on their lap. Either way, I just shake my head in amazement. The kid, meanwhile, literally trembled when I looked at him, like the runt in a litter of underfed puppies. I suspect unhappy days await him in high school.

This is an example of what are called Copter Parents (Helicoptor as in they Hover) there were several references to them where usually it's a hystercal reaction to the news reports on children. There are examples of how they will call their kids bosses and even the job interviewers on their twentysomethings behalf.

 

[LocktownDog]

There is much scientific evidence that the teenage brain works on a different cycle than adults, and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of teaching them to get up early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well. better to let them get to school rested.

Perhaps the teenage brain works on a different cycle because they refuse to go to bed at a decent hour? My boys stay up texting and playing around on their computers until 3am some nights. (and no, I don't allow that & they know it [huh] ) I never had access to such things when I was their age. My high school started at 7:30am and class went on until after 3. Our school had high grad rates and GPA averages.

I think a large part of the problem teens now isn't biological but social and environmental.

 

[LocktownDog]

There are examples of how they will call their kids bosses and even the job interviewers on their twentysomethings behalf.

Please tell me you're kidding. Yikes!

 

[Feraud]

There is much scientific evidence that the teenage brain works on a different cycle than adults, and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of teaching them to get up early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well. better to let them get to school rested.

If school begins early then students need to get to bed early.
Most over-tired students are allowed to stay up late.

Once my son hit his teen years I noticed he could sleep all day if allowed! My wife and I realized this and made it a point that during the week he get ready for bed at 9p.m. If that were not enough I'd push it up an hour.

 

[Geesie]

There is much scientific evidence that the teenage brain works on a different cycle than adults, and getting up that early is not a good idea, as it leaves them tired all day. What is the point of teaching them to get up early when they will be exhausted and unable to learn well. better to let them get to school rested.

Because that isn't the way they did it in my day!

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.

As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the monkeys with cold water. After a while, another monkey will make an attempt with the same response -- all of the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Keep this up for several days.

Turn off the cold water. If, later, another monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it even though no water sprays them.

Now, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

Replace the third original monkey with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four monkeys that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing the fourth and fifth original monkeys, all the monkeys which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs.

Why not?

"Because that's the way it's always been done around here."

 

[Foofoogal]

Recently saw a news story on the huge spike in football injuries and even death among youth.

I got up crack of dawn for chores as a kid and walked the chalkline so to speak but I have found I am at my best at about 1:00 in the afternoon.
People have different time clocks.
Nothing made me madder raising children then someone waking them up when I worked hard to get them to sleep. lol

 

[LizzieMaine]

Perhaps the teenage brain works on a different cycle because they refuse to go to bed at a decent hour? My boys stay up texting and playing around on their computers until 3am some nights. (and no, I don't allow that & they know it [huh] ) I never had access to such things when I was their age. My high school started at 7:30am and class went on until after 3. Our school had high grad rates and GPA averages.

I think a large part of the problem teens now isn't biological but social and environmental.

Move the school day later so they won't have to get up early, and what do they do later on when they're working at a job and don't want to get up early? "Sorry, but I was up late last night. OK if I come in at noon?" "Oh, by all means. In fact, why don't you just stay right there in bed and we'll bring your work out to you."

One of the most important things school should teach kids is that the world does not, in fact, revolve around them -- the most important thing for anyone to understand who hopes to survive in the workplace.

 

[Richard Warren]

Confused. Is it the child's fault that the school lacks a proper schedule?