LizzieMaine
Bartender
- Messages
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- Where The Tourists Meet The Sea
Actually, I disagree with you, but I don't dislike you. I think I'd really have to know you well to dislike you.
LizzieMaine said:Pompidou said:I can hire someone who didn't go to college and learn three languages to do life's mundane work, provided the directions aren't on the internet. Just playing devil's advocate.
I didn't go to college, but I don't think you could afford my fee.
PS -- Did you major in classism?
Delthayre said:And besides, the youth weren't the one who started a thread for moaning about their opposites.
LizzieMaine said:I'll go out on a limb here -- I don't have kids of my own. But I do work with teenagers on a daily basis, and I'll say first off that the kids I hire are the ones who don't fit the modern stereotype. The kids I hire *are* respectful, diligent, hard-working, responsible, and all the things we gripe about modern teens not being. But to find these kids, I have to sift thru a lot of kids who fit the modern stereotype to a T.
I think the difference is that the kids who don't fit the stereotype are the ones who've been taught self reliance. They've been required by their parents to solve problems for themselves, to clean up after themselves, to face the consequences of their own mistakes, and to generally learn adult responsibilities at an early age. This has nothing to do with school and everything to do with the attitude of the parents: the parents of the "good kids" are the ones who are willing to let go, and let their kids fall on their faces once in a while. The parents who insist on controlling and stage-managing and cushioning their offspring's every move are the parents of kids who are going to grow up self-absorbed, entitled, and irresponsible. Because they know mommy and daddy will be right there behind them to kiss their boo-boos and make them better.
scottyrocks said:There are arguments for both sides of this.
If we artificially build self-esteem, we have generally happier kids. If we let them succeed and fail, like normal people do every day, we’ll have some kids who will cope and learn from it, and some who won’t (as well). Again, you cant generalize about any one method, and cant force specificity onto any group of people such as kids/teenagers.
The point is, everyone is different, and this is why we have people to fill in all the various positions that exist in society. Not everyone is gonna be a Donald Trump (perhaps not the best example), and not everyone is gonna be a, lets say, a sanitation engineer (my apologies – not meant as offensive to SE’s).
The truth is, as you look up the ladder of success, there is way less room the higher you go. Who gets there and how is dependent on a lot of factors. Is it possible that child A, if handled differently when they lost that little league world series game would’ve become the next Derek Jeter when he grew up instead of quitting baseball at the tender age of 9, while child B, treated the same way, made the major leagues? There’s really no way to know. Everyone is different, and the game unfolds as it does, for each person as it happens.
Miss Neecerie said:See and here is when I must say...part of the self esteem 'everyone needs to go to college' you can be successful ' stuff that is pushed to all kids these days...
one of the side effects of that is that everyone is told they too CAN be Donald Trump....and should go to college...since thats the stepping stone...
Rather then acknowledging that perhaps they are better suited to something else, and perhaps attending a trade school and being the worlds best electrician or plumber...they try college and fail at it, because we have set up a system (at least here in the states) where the other options are not really promoted anymore.
This has lead to a real gap for people between the unskilled labor and the college educated groups....and people doing those careers as a 'well I failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society.
reetpleat said:Problem is though, that traditionally, working class kids and minorities are channeled into trade schools or not going to college. this is wrong. every kid should be taught that they can go to college. It really is a major step up the economic and class ladder.
If a kid decides he is not suited to college, and wants to study a trade or maybe start a business, I find that acceptable, but only if this is a true choice between college and not. So, no offense to the trades, but excepting the skilled trades, most non college jobs tend to be difficult on the body, boring, low paying, little security, etc. obviously the skilled trades and professions such as fire, police, military, and entrepreneurs etc are not so much. Or, some are fortunate enough to get into a profession in which they train or teach themselves and become quite valuable. But, in general, college and post college education is the doorway to better pay and work situation. And College should be an option to everyone.
Pompidou said:There is a movement growing that aims to change the American work ethic - not the youth work ethic - the American work ethic, where blue collar is below us, something to be avoided - outsourced. Check out http://www.mikeroweworks.com/. You'll recognize the founder from Dirty Jobs, the TV show. There's a lot of merit to it. It's not a problem with today's youth that trades and blue collar jobs are held in disdain. It's a national problem that goes back a couple generations. We do need those jobs. That said, we need to avoid an "Us vs Them" situation. Mike Rowe is shooting for a hybrid blue/white collar worker - a muddy boots engineer, in other words.
Reetpleat said:Problem is though, that traditionally, working class kids and minorities are channeled into trade schools or not going to college. this is wrong. every kid should be taught that they can go to college. It really is a major step up the economic and class ladder.
Because the spoiled brats are too lazy. In my day we constantly griped about our elders!Delthayre said:And besides, the youth weren't the one who started a thread for moaning about their opposites.
Miss Neecerie said:And if you go back and re-read what I posted about this....its precisely what I meant...I was not complaining about the youth...rather the system that promotes only one form of education as 'desirable or worthy of advancement'...
failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society....
So instead of figuring out how not to be racist and classist etc....we just tell everyone they MUST go to college to achieve in this country. Not -can- but MUST.....
I don't think thats a good solution to the issue either.
LizzieMaine said:Whatever the solution is, it has to include a confrontation of the essential classism -- let's call it what it is, class bigotry -- at its root. The assumption is made that if you didn't go to college, your only alternative is to work in a factory or in a road gang or to sweep the floor and cook the food and raise the kids of those who did. Because I can "pass" as a college-educated person when it suits me to do so, I hear this sort of casual *bigotry* all the time from the same sort of people who can't wait to tell you how enlightened they are on all matters of social justice, but gawdawmighty, they wouldn't be caught dead at a Wal-Mart, because "just look at *those people*" It's exactly the sort of pious hypocrisy that the folks at "Stuff White People Like" make such lacerating fun of, but in the real world it's nowhere near as funny.
Miss Neecerie said:Oh I agree....
I just sort of thing solving it by swinging the other way, and telling every single student that they are destined for college, doesn't really solve it either...just puts it off until further down the line...when a job interviewer sees an 'ethnic name' or hears a 'lower class' voice coming from someone with a degree ....and then degree or not..they pick the middle class person for the job.
And what a shock that is....'but wait...I was told I could better myself by having a 4 year degree'
LizzieMaine said:This afternoon I'm going to be interviewing candidates for a popcorn-selling job. Looking over the applications, I see two people with Masters' in education, one certified acupuncturist, and a marketing B. A. Each of them has been out of work for at least six months. I wonder what they're thinking?
Miss Neecerie said:And if you go back and re-read what I posted about this....its precisely what I meant...I was not complaining about the youth...rather the system that promotes only one form of education as 'desirable or worthy of advancement'...
failed out of...' option...instead of a valued choice and member of society.
So instead of figuring out how not to be racist and classist etc....we just tell everyone they MUST go to college to achieve in this country. Not -can- but MUST.....
I don't think thats a good solution to the issue either.
reetpleat said:Nope. Correcting racism and classism is not the same as being politically correct. The solution is to give every kid a good education, placing emphasis on the value of education and the option of higher learning. If a child is steered towards the trades, or not college, it should be because they might be better suited to something else, not their class, their race, or even their prior performance. many poor kids get bad educations and with a little remedial help, could excel at college.
Then every kid has the option, and can choose if college is for them.
LizzieMaine said:Whatever the solution is, it has to include a confrontation of the essential classism -- let's call it what it is, class bigotry -- at its root. The assumption is made that if you didn't go to college, your only alternative is to work in a factory or in a road gang or to sweep the floor and cook the food and raise the kids of those who did. Because I can "pass" as a college-educated person when it suits me to do so, I hear this sort of casual *bigotry* all the time from the same sort of people who can't wait to tell you how enlightened they are on all matters of social justice, but gawdawmighty, they wouldn't be caught dead at a Wal-Mart, because "just look at *those people*" It's exactly the sort of pious hypocrisy that the folks at "Stuff White People Like" make such lacerating fun of, but in the real world it's nowhere near as funny.