The Vintage Tailoring Thread

[Mario]

^^^What he said. It's not so common these days to go for high, smaller cut armholes.

 

[Red Leader]

Not sure where to put this exactly, but it relates to suit construction.

I have (in the little time I've been educating myself about vintage clothes) always associated skeleton lining with older, 1930s-1940s.

I found this about 2 weeks ago:

Now check out the date:

Never thought I'd see skeleton lining in a jacket this young. Is there a generally accepted time that tailors made a definable transition over to the half lining normally seen in the 1950s-60s jackets?

 

[Vampyre Master]

half lining

why half lining?
VM

 

[SteveAS]

why half lining?

Do you mean why is a half lining better than a full lining? Two benefits are easier alterations and the jackets breathe better.

 

[Chasseur]

Sorry for the delay on this one, work has been hectic.

Here are the action back photos of my vintage 1930s jacket and then the reproduction of it I had done recently.

Vintage jacket:

Inside:

The action pleat:

Copy of jacket:

inside:

The pleat:

 

[Chasseur]

Collar/throat latch:

I also had this detail copied on the new one but forgot to take a photo...

 

[herringbonekid]

...Never thought I'd see skeleton lining in a jacket this young. Is there a generally accepted time that tailors made a definable transition over to the half lining normally seen in the 1950s-60s jackets?

half-lining seems to be almost standard for American 20s-50s jackets. as your's is just out of the 50s at 1960 it's not too surprising. my interest in American clothing ends around mid 50s, so we need an American member with an interest in the 60s to tell us whether half lining was common then too.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The era doesn't interest me at all, but I've seen a lot of these suits, and yes, the half/skeleton lining was very common. More common is the liner covering fully half the back, but the seams are still taped. By the middle/late 60s, becoming less popular.

bk

 

[KyleK]

I'm not a tailor, a hobbyist, or even much of a vintage enthusiast but, for some reason, I'm finding this thread to be fascinating. Love the details.

 

[DamianM]

I have this at the Hollywood Jackets post but It falls more in this thread for I am making this myself from Patterns Ive found.
Its a 40s Leisure Jacket , Howard hughes status.
Not bad though If I say so myself for the first time I have ever sowed anything.
Still need the Pockets either brown or keep them white
Ive even added an optional belt because ive seen some around like so.

For Detachable belt

Critique please

 

[Qirrel]

Here is an interesting idea from a German tailoring magazine: How to wear your trousers as knickerbockers:

 

[herringbonekid]

anyone know when the Spalla Camicia (shirt shoulder) dates back to ? i've only seen it on modern bespoke suits such as these:

i'd be interested to hear of its history.
for those who don't know what it is; the raw edges of the sleeve and armhole are pressed to the body side and hand stitched (subtly) along the shoulder crown. it is usually done with little or no padding.

 

[Barmey]

Think the Neapolitan shoulder was just the Italian's (Rubinacci) answer to the soft construction being popularised by Fredrick Scholte in the West End during the 20s.

Quite a lengthy discussion on the history and development of the drape and napoli cuts.
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67

 

[herringbonekid]

thanks Barmey. unfortunately i'm not a member of the cutter and tailor so can't read that link; do you know if the spalla camicia was developed back in the 20s/30s alongside the London drape or later ?

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Here is an interesting idea from a German tailoring magazine: How to wear your trousers as knickerbockers:

Yes. It's from 1931. The still figured out what to do with the sportswear (plus fours) trend. If someboy wants to try that and needs help with the translation...

 

[Qirrel]

The "shirt shoulder/sleeve" is probably a continuation or recycling of the style of sleeve which was common during the 19th century, up to the 1890s. The sleeves were cut with a lower cap, which gives that "wave" effect when the sleeve is set. You don't actually have to turn the seams the opposite way of what is normal to achieve the effect. And of course, pressing the sleeve seam like that was sure to be known to tailors before some Italian "invented" the shirt shoulder. Stitching the allowance down was also not an uncommon finish in overcoats, raincoats etc., but also suits; see for example the 1912 American suit I posted in the show us your suits thread a while back.

Here is an example of the wave/ripple effect from the 1870s:

(The full post where this picture featured: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1206&view=findpost&p=9436)

Some more discussion (beware Sator's crusade on old time tailoring) http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=334)

 

[herringbonekid]

Qirrel, i can't find that 1912 suit of yours but i think i remember seeing it.
i don't think the height of the cap is what creates the wave (waterfall) effect, rather it's the amount of fullness coupled with the lack of sleevehead wadding. the fullness which would ordinarily be filled out by the wadding falls into ripples. this could be exaggerated or reduced by the amount of fullness in the sleeve cap. what i mainly notice about the modern examples above is is how you can see the ridge of seam allowance on the shoulder, which i think would look fine on a rougher workwear jacket, but on a suit i'm not so sure.
also, for me anyway, the 'shirt shoulder' has to have the seams pressed to the body other wise its just an 'open' seam. what makes it look like a shirt is the way the shoulder seam forms an edge which sits on top of the sleeve (the way a flat felled seam on a shirt is all on the body):

 

[Qirrel]

The "waterfall effect" is also a result of there not being wadding to make things smooth and round (it would be rather stupid to have wadding if you wanted the fullness in the crown to look uneven), but you also need to shorten the sleeve cap height, otherwise you will have a much uglier looking crown than what the shirt shoulder constitutes. Adding height to the sleeve cap will give the sleeve more "roping", and this needs to be filled with wadding to keep it smooth. Otherwise it would collapse downward to create horizontal ripples/creases, not the vertical ones you get in the shirt shoulder. If one were to cut a sleeve meant for a shirt shoulder and then shrink everything as usual after setting the sleeve in, the fullness would also not appear as vertical ripples, but smoothly rounded. To exaggerate/minimize the waterfall effect you can change the degree to which your fullness is distributed evenly, or widen/narrow the sleeve as described here: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.no/2009_11_01_archive.html . And of course, if your original sleeve cap is not roped and does not require any wadding at all to look nice, it would not be necessary to shorten it.

I agree that the shirt shoulder needs to be felled like a shirt, otherwise it would just be a regular shoulder. But the terminology on this point is quite confusing. To be logical, a shirt shoulder shouldn't necessarily describe a seam allowance felled to the body and the waterfall of the sleeve. And making a shirt sleeve and putting it into a tailored jacket body doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a waterfall effect. Not all shirtmakers gather the fullness like that at the top of the sleeve. But well, I guess I can't argue with the way of the internet.

 

[herringbonekid]

The "waterfall effect" is also a result of there not being wadding to make things smooth and round

agreed; that's what i said above; "it's the amount of fullness coupled with the lack of sleevehead wadding".

To be logical, a shirt shoulder shouldn't necessarily describe a seam allowance felled to the body and the waterfall of the sleeve.

you're right it shouldn't and in my understanding it doesn't. it only describes the technique of seam allowance pressed to and pick stitched to the body. the 'waterfall' effect is secondary and variable according to taste.

 

[herringbonekid]

this is spalla camicia with a bit of wadding. you can clearly see the 'edge' formed along the arm hole where the seam allowance has been pressed underneath, away from the sleeve:

remove that wadding and it would look more like this, which is pretty extreme 'waterfall' effect:

i quite like this one as it looks a bit more workwear-ish. i could imagine doing something like this in cotton:

these could be vintage spallas:

anyone else have any thoughts on the aesthetic appeal of the shirt shoulder ?