The Swing Movement

[dakotanorth]

Sub-genres of swing?

I hate it when people think that lindy is a certain tempo or balboa is a certain tempo etc. They say, this song is a bal song because it is so fast. Back in the day, lindy dancers danced lindy to everything, shag ,balboa or whatever dancers danced it to all mid or fast tempo songs.

Songs are considered "Balboa" or "Lindy" because some of us don't want to totally bust our a** doing lindy to a song that's 220bpm! It's called saving your strength so you can last the whole night.
Dancing Lindy to a "Charrrrrrl-STN!" beat; yup, it's a question of musicality. In some cases, the lead only knows one form of dance; kinda like pounding a nail into the wall with your workboot. It works, but obviously there's a better way.
Musicality..... It still stumps me sometimes. [huh]

 

[dhermann1]

Glenn Miller footage

Are you sure you're not thinking of the scene from "The Glenn Miller Story", the movie from 1954? In that they're all dressed in straight 1954 clothes, and doing a very dreary little foxtrot to the music. Actually, in some of the huge dance halls of the time, that held 500 or more people on the dance floor at once, all you could do to an up tempo tune was fox trot. It's possible to do a nice little fox trot to a swing tune, if you're all crushed in with other people. Again, that's if the band is playing a medium tempo. I often shift from a pretty mobile swing (for an old geezer), to a close fox trot for a few measures. My girlfriend LOVES it. It's actually very canoodly.

 

[dhermann1]

Musicality..... It still stumps me sometimes. [huh]

Amen, brother.

 

[Paisley]

Some of my favorite dances are with leads who do Charleston, lindy and/or Balboa in one song.

 

[Paisley]

But there comes a tempo tha is just too slow and trying to do lindy to that, or even worse, charleston kicks, looks ridiculous to me. If you are having trouble keeping your balance and not falling over, you are doing it too slow. Those are the songs where you take a lady in your arms and have a little chat.

Sounds kinda like a blues dance

 

[catsmeow]

With reference to dancing lindy steps to more earlier swing from the 20's, it all really depends on what you know. I'd love to learn more charleston steps, balboa etc. It's all a learning progress. You could be learning swing for years and still not know all of it. It's all a matter of experience and confidence(which will come in time) but mostly just to have FUN with it.

 

[Snookie]

This whole idea of showing off your moves is a modern one.

Huh? It was WORSE back then! There was actually real money to be made from dancing, either in contests or performing, and it was CUT THROAT.

In old harlem footage, often the girl is just barely keeping up. But you can easily tell the ones who could and could even look damn good doing it. They wre the ones repeatedly pulled into the jam sesions by different guys.

That's nice to imagine, but the guys are grabbing whichever girl is capable of keeping up - of course, she's gotta be decent. But they aren't trying to show off the girl, they're trying to one up each other. Not that it isn't fun for the girl, too.

Isn't interpreting history fun?

 

[catsmeow]

Pitching in on this wonderful thread.
Have been downloading several of the bands recommended.
Great tunes & bands!

Had my first dance lesson EVER yesterday evening...
Basic swing...
Left my overweight and computerchained self asthmatically irritated and sweating buckets. :rage:
I found it surprisingly hard to (for the first time in my life) dancing with a clearly defined pattern as the gospel.
Only done my own SINGLE thang on dance floors.
Great fun though! Will eventually be decent with loads of practice.

And; we dress the part!

Well Done Woland! I hope you stick with it. If i ever come to Norway you owe me a dance!!

 

[Benny Holiday]

Some places dancers don 't want it fast OR slow.

I remember talking to a guy with a lindy group and sending him some mp3s of my band (which played all original 1929-37 charts). He responded by telling me we didn't really play swing. "Your hot numbers are too fast for us - we can't show off our moves. The rest is so slow it's tame."

Turned out they wanted everything about the same tempo as In the Mood. Every. Friggn. THING. [huh] *grumble*

Sad, but true. It's same with Rock'n'Roll.

Dig this, Fletch: I had a great Swing combo from 2002-2006, with some of the best young jazz musicians playing in it. It got to the stage where we refused toplay for the dancers here in Sydney, and would only play jazz clubs, because all the dancers ever did was whinge. We were either too fast, or too slow. They were never happy.

Then we did the huge Wintersun dance/cars/music festival in Queensland, and were voted Best Dance Band by the dancers up there. I can't work those people out. Best for musicians to avoid their politics altogether.

 

[catsmeow]

Sad, but true. It's same with Rock'n'Roll.

Dig this, Fletch: I had a great Swing combo from 2002-2006, with some of the best young jazz musicians playing in it. It got to the stage where we refused toplay for the dancers here in Sydney, and would only play jazz clubs, because all the dancers ever did was whinge. We were either too fast, or too slow. They were never happy.

Then we did the huge Wintersun dance/cars/music festival in Queensland, and were voted Best Dance Band by the dancers up there. I can't work those people out. Best for musicians to avoid their politics altogether.

Hey..we aren't all bad!!

 

[Benny Holiday]

I was referring to the majority of the dancers, that is, those who only dance - they're not into the music (hence they can't feel the rhythm), they're not into the vintage clothes or lifestyle, they pretty much only turn up to show off. The type who don't applaud for the band, but do when their friends perform a big aerial step or something. The minority who are into the Swing subculture are different. They love the music and feel it when they dance, they 'get into the groove', as the hepcats used to say back in the day. Unfortunately, they were and are few in number compared to the majority of ballroom trophy hunters out there, who simply can't dance properly because they don't have a passion for the music.

 

[catsmeow]

I was referring to the majority of the dancers, that is, those who only dance - they're not into the music (hence they can't feel the rhythm), they're not into the vintage clothes or lifestyle, they pretty much only turn up to show off. The type who don't applaud for the band, but do when their friends perform a big aerial step or something. The minority who are into the Swing subculture are different. They love the music and feel it when they dance, they 'get into the groove', as the hepcats used to say back in the day. Unfortunately, they were and are few in number compared to the majority of ballroom trophy hunters out there, who simply can't dance properly because they don't have a passion for the music.

Yep, I know what you mean-seen a few of them. Just ignore them, it's your band besides it's good to sit there quietly and just to listen to the music.

 

[catsmeow]

I hate it when people think that lindy is a certain tempo or balboa is a certain tempo etc. They say, this song is a bal song because it is so fast. Back in the day, lindy dancers danced lindy to everything, shag ,balboa or whatever dancers danced it to all mid or fast tempo songs.

yeah know what you're saying.

who says you have to dance swing to swing music. we hop to 80's pop tunes! great fun!

 

[reetpleat]

Songs are considered "Balboa" or "Lindy" because some of us don't want to totally bust our a** doing lindy to a song that's 220bpm! It's called saving your strength so you can last the whole night.
Dancing Lindy to a "Charrrrrrl-STN!" beat; yup, it's a question of musicality. In some cases, the lead only knows one form of dance; kinda like pounding a nail into the wall with your workboot. It works, but obviously there's a better way.
Musicality..... It still stumps me sometimes. [huh]

I agree that a dancer has good reason to choose a dance that works for them for the tempo. I am talking about people who actually think that a certain song is for a certain dance. If someone says, balboa would be good for this song. That is one thing. But for people to say, this is a balboa song. Like cha cha cha or waltz, that is what gets me.

thing is, most people do not have much of an ide how people used to social dance to fast songs. They get too caught up in the ida that it is all about doing swing outs over and over. No one can hope to keep that up for a whole song. i blame the early teachers for instilling that idea. To me, lindy is not an eight count dance, it is a two count dance. If one dances like they did in the day, they would have no problem. That, and if the music got high enough tempo, they often would shift into half speed and messing around.

As far as musicality, don't beat yourself up too much. The trend of "musicality is overrated. Listen to the music and get the feel of the misic and the musicians playing. Then let it come out in how you move. That to me is being with the music. Not the way some people add little affected flourishes to accent the music. That to me seems way too deliberate and affected. It is all about being in the groove wit hthe musiians. Not that hard to do.

 

[reetpleat]

Are you sure you're not thinking of the scene from "The Glenn Miller Story", the movie from 1954? In that they're all dressed in straight 1954 clothes, and doing a very dreary little foxtrot to the music. Actually, in some of the huge dance halls of the time, that held 500 or more people on the dance floor at once, all you could do to an up tempo tune was fox trot. It's possible to do a nice little fox trot to a swing tune, if you're all crushed in with other people. Again, that's if the band is playing a medium tempo. I often shift from a pretty mobile swing (for an old geezer), to a close fox trot for a few measures. My girlfriend LOVES it. It's actually very canoodly.

I think so. But you are quite right. If yo usee photos of the Savoy Ballroom, it was often foxtrot room only. That is all most people really wanted to do is hold their girl and sway around a little. That is why the cats had to section off a place to get a little craxy. It was called the cats corner.

Frankly, I have never found in the mood to be a good lindy number. It is too slow for my tastes to really get some swing going. Good tune, but a little too square and slow. Much better for a brisk fox trot. Thing is, because it swings, it sounds a little faster than it is to most people. I see that a lot. A woman will say Oh this is kind of fast because they are hearing the swinging rhythm and it makes it sould faster than it is. Then you get on the floor and it isn't bad at all.

 

[reetpleat]

Sounds kinda like a blues dance

Don't even get me started on that. In general I mean just swaying around a little, but back in San Francisco, at the height of the swing days, when a slow bluesy song came on I would grab a woman or other that I knew well and do a bit of bumping and grinding. Nothing distasteful, just for fun. And always with a friend wo would not mind. So while other people were trying to do lindy to it, I was doiing what I felt would have been the normal dancing by your average guy back in the day, or manybe your normal african american in a juke joint.


Well, while I won't try to suggest I started it, years later all of a sudden certain teachers start to call it Blues dancing and teaching stuff, and i was thinking "Blues dancing, I just call it dancing to a good slow blues song." I wouldn't have ever thought to name and teach it. Guess I missed out on fame and fortune.

 

[reetpleat]

Huh? It was WORSE back then! There was actually real money to be made from dancing, either in contests or performing, and it was CUT THROAT.



That's nice to imagine, but the guys are grabbing whichever girl is capable of keeping up - of course, she's gotta be decent. But they aren't trying to show off the girl, they're trying to one up each other. Not that it isn't fun for the girl, too.

Isn't interpreting history fun?

I agree com,pletely. What I mean by showing off your moves is this trend of women't "styling. It becomes more about taking time to stop and "do" styling instead of having style in what you do, which is following through the steps. Same for guys, it is about having style to your dancing, not "doing style moves" But what you are talking about moves is to me, dancing. ANd yes, they were quite good and amazing, especially in competition.

I also agree and that is what I meant aobut the guys grabbing the girl that could keep up, but if they wre good enough to keep up, they generally looked good doing it too. Style and substance are one and the same to me. If you are doing it right, it will have style. For example, if a woman tries to move her hips in a certain way to have style, it is not the right approach. Getting the right kinetic movement and connection to your partner to make the dance work well will necesserily result in the right hip movement.

Of course, the additional style such as arm movement, finger waving etc. Well, that came out of a longhistory of dance and while it was intentional, was pretty much second nature for most dancers. We in this age have to try a little harder which is hwy it is hard to do it and not look corny. But it cna be done.

I have always thought it was funny when people bring up the ide athat "leading is about making your partner look good? That may be true in Ballroom dancing, and maybe salsa etc, but swing, while it should be done with attention to your partner being able to follow and hav fun. But it was developed by a bunch of urban black teenagers. How concerned do you think they were about making their partner look good? They wer a bunch of showboaters and the fact that the followers could keep up and look so damn good doing so is that much more to their credit.

 

[Paisley]

I agree that there's some fakey looking styling out there.

I disagree that substance and style are the same, though, if I understand you correctly. In 2005, I took a class where the teachers taped us dancing. Now, while I'd often been told that I was a good follow, my total focus on substance just really didn't look good. (The fact that I don't like being photographed surely didn't help.) I think that putting more styling in my dancing improved it, and my partners seem to enjoy it as well. Of course, I fit my styling to the song and partner. I don't stop and do styling unless my partner lets go of me for more than a free turn. For me, dancing is about being a good partner and interpreting the music.

All the lindy classes I took were great for learning to follow, but I learned to move in the solo dance classes (e.g., shim sham and ballet).

 

[Chas]

PS. A photo of real swing dancers! Note: Not a Zoot in the Roost!

That's because at the time this picture was taken, any white kid caught wearing a zoot suit was risking a severe beating by servicemen. And it would be totally justified.

The Term swing "Revival" should be used with extreme caution. It's misleading. I would consider it more of a fad than a revival. The truth is, it never really died.

For those who insist that a dance "revival" had actually occurred, I suggest you consider that these video were taken in 1982. Long before the "Revival" occurred.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6rgRpqmiXA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3OC6CuuUzg&feature=related

As I undertand it, the Swing Revival developed in a parallel fashion; one group centered around Al Mimms in the East and another groups based in SF and LA. In essence, I believe that it was an outgrowth of the "Lounge" scene.

The "Lounge" scene primarily developed around former punks and others who were sick of, and annoyed with grunge. Essentially, they started dressing up in suits, drinking martinis and listening to Frank Sinatra a lot. For a time the dancing aspect of it was not necessarily the primary focus. Vintage clothing, hairstyles, cars etc. were also a big part of the scene. I recall going to my first Camp Hollywood and seeing a car lot 3/4 full of vintage autos.

The rediscovery of Lindy Hop was, unfortunately, accompanied by some historical revisionism and misinterpretation; because Al Mimms and Frankie Manning were the only surviving Lindy dancers approached, I think that there was a tendency to regard their particular styles as representative of the dance as it was done. The problem with this is that Whitey's were essentially a performance and competition group, and their style was not truly representative of Lindy as a social dance. The contemporary swing dance scene is very fad-oriented. Certain dance styles fall in and out of favor, seemingly on a rotating basis. And the fixation on particular tempos and musical styles is utterly ridiculous. Dance music is dance music. I tend to agree on the assessment of the swing scene's revulsion for ballads as idiotic and narrow-minded. The problem I have with the dance as it is done currently is that the leads pretty much show-boat and make no real attempt to entertain and present the follows.

That being said, I enjoy the music, fashion, lifestyle and culture of the 20s-40's particularly engrossing. The dance is just one part of it. Taken as individuals, swing dancers are like any other scenesters. Some are cool cats and kittens that I would be happy to spend time around. On the whole, however, the swing scene itself can be a byword for snobbery, and emotional immaturity. A pity.

 

[reetpleat]

I agree that there's some fakey looking styling out there.

I disagree that substance and style are the same, though, if I understand you correctly. In 2005, I took a class where the teachers taped us dancing. Now, while I'd often been told that I was a good follow, my total focus on substance just really didn't look good. (The fact that I don't like being photographed surely didn't help.) I think that putting more styling in my dancing improved it, and my partners seem to enjoy it as well. Of course, I fit my styling to the song and partner. I don't stop and do styling unless my partner lets go of me for more than a free turn. For me, dancing is about being a good partner and interpreting the music.

All the lindy classes I took were great for learning to follow, but I learned to move in the solo dance classes (e.g., shim sham and ballet).

I agree taht solo dancing is very important. in my opinion, dancers back in the day, especially african american, had style in their partner dancing because they grewe up solo dancing. Since they wre tiny they grew up with a vocabulary of movement. Even today, you still see african american kids emulationg older siblings parents etc and by five already have a strong sense of movement.

We probably don't really disagree on the style versus substance. I think tht if you learn good style it will also make your movement flow better. What I consider real style may not be completely inherent to the move, but it is perfectly consistant with the kinetics of it. Further, especially for women, most of what I consider good style is good hip movement and the occasional arm flying around somewhere.

To me, both of these come from proper walking or moving through the swing out or other step (switches etc.) They become the same. And the arm or leg that flys out and ads flair often is a result of a controlled release of centrifical force.

I do sometimes see women try to move their hips in a way that emulates old footage, but if they don't get it right it actually throws off the kinetic connection. Of course, I rely on and expect a stronger kinetic connection with my partner than many dancers. I do not believe in the idea that leading is a suggestion and your touch should just be barely felt. I expect my partner or me, if we let go at the wrong time or did not redirect the centrifical force, to (exageration) keep going till you hit the wall.

Perhaps someday we will have a chance to dance together. I am sure you are great and that would be fun.

I don't know if I ever asked you this but do you go back far enough to remember a teacher named Carrie? She was into horses. really cool. Taht would have been in Denber and Fort Collins about ten years ago.