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The Spanish Civil War

Salv

One Too Many
Messages
1,247
Location
Just outside London
Foreign intervention.

One of the most contentious subjects related to the Spanish Civil War. The eventual outcome of the war was almost certainly decided by the actions - or lack of actions - by the allies that both sides called on for help. As mentioned above, from the very start of the rebellion - when a British pilot flew Franco to Morocco, and German and Italian planes flew the Army Of Africa to the mainland - the rebels had foreign assistance. Aid from Hitler and Mussolini was vital to Franco and it was eagerly given. Hitler saw it as an opportunity to test his army and air force in real battle conditions, while Mussolini had long been an ally of the Spanish right, funding the Falange since its inception; Mussolini was also keen to win more military glory after the Italian campaign in Abyssinia, and wanted a second fascist state in the Mediterranean to put pressure on British naval dominance in the area.

Soon after the Savoia-Marchettis arrived the Italians also provided 33 Fiat fighters, 3 sea planes, 5 Fiat-Ansaldo light tanks and 12 field guns all with ammunition and trained personnel. In addition to the Junkers 52s the Germans sent 6 Heinkel 51s, 20 anti-aircraft guns and other equipment, including Mark 1 Panzer tanks, along with 'volunteer' pilots. Also provided over the course of the war were the Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter, Heinkel He 111 medium bomber and the Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive-bomber, all of which were first flown in anger by the Condor Legion. The Heinkel 51, a biplane, quickly became outdated as a fighter and was switched to a ground attack role and then became a trainer.

The Condor Legion was formed in November 1936, bringing together all the German troops into one organisation. Over the course of the war these soldiers and airmen were rotated out regularly and a total of approximately 20,000 German troops and pilots served in Spain. The Italians provided a total of 60,000 troops, named the Corpo Truppe Volontarie, over the course of the war, with its air force under German command.

On the Republican side, as mentioned above, the French initially agreed to provide fighter planes but, after pressure from Britain, stopped any further aid. The Republican government, according to international law, were perfectly entitled to buy arms from whomever would supply them, but with the British wary of antagonising Hitler, the French dependent on the British for mutual assitance should Hitler start expanding his empire westwards, and the Americans pursuing a policy of isolationism, the Republic had to turn to Soviet Russia and Mexico for help. Despite documented proof of German and Italain assistance the three western democracies decided that an across-the-board policy of non-intervention was the fairest policy. The USA, britain, France, Germany, Italy and Russia were signatories to this policy, and when it became obvious that the Germans and Italians were ignoring the policy the Russians also felt free to continue giving assistance.

None of this was free. The Republic paid for Russian weaponry with its gold supplies - Spain had the fourth largest stockpile of gold in the world at the time - and the rebels relied on rich supporters within Spain, and the promise of mineral rights and loans to be paid once the war was won.

The Non-Intervention Committee was a farce right from its inception and, far from ensuring that neither side benefitted from foreign aid, it only served to keep the Republic dependent on the communists - who were certainly no friends of the Republic as a whole - while the rebels received far better equipment and better trained troops.

The Republic was in dire need of trained soldiers - not enough of the regular army had remained loyal, and the civilian militias were untrained and poorly armed. A solution was suggested by the Comintern - they would "proceed to the recruitment of volunteers with military experience fom the workers of all countries, with the purpose of sending them to Spain." By this time there were already several hundred foreign volunteers fighting with various units in Spain but the communists would recruit and train what would become the International Brigades. Eventually over 32,000 men from 53 different countries would serve with the International Brigades, while a further 5,000 would serve with other units, mostly the CNT and the POUM (George Orwell was part of a POUM unit).
 

mlktrout

New in Town
Messages
8
Location
Florida
Wow! (Intro too)

Looks like I picked a great day to join the Fedora Lounge. :eusa_clap

Since discovering Jose Iturbi I have been fascinated by Spain and all things Spanish. This thread has more useful info about the Spanish Civil War than anything else I've read. I plowed through The Spanish Civil War, The Soviet Union and Communism a few months ago and didn't learn half as much as I did from this thread. Thanks much for all these posts; now I must go back and download them for future reference!
 

Lincsong

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,907
Location
Shining City on a Hill
Sierra Charriba said:
I was schooled by the Agustinians, in some way rivals of Jesuits...but my father had not catholic feelings. He didn't go to church on sunday, and that was something that shamed me when I was a boy...but my catholic education lost the battle against the rationalism at sixteen, just when I discovered the girl next door...

In sixties, the catholic school were everywhere. Most of boys and girls in these times were educated by the priests and nuns, including the sons of agnostics or atheists. Choosing another school was very difficult.

All my family is from Madrid from the XIX century (very rare).

The town of El Ferrol (Galicia), where Franco was born, was renamed as "El Ferrol del Caudillo" after the war. "Caudillo" means leader, chief of tribe, duce, führer....

Regards

Interesting. You don't sound like someone whom the Jesuits got a hold of.lol
So there weren't any "public schools" in Spain in the 1960's? All schools were parochial? It is interesting that Franco was a self described; "defender of the Roman Catholic Church" but, many Spanairds of my grandfather's (born 1890) and great-grandfather's generation (born 1880) were actually quite religously indifferent. In otherwords; send the kids to Mass, I'll come if I have the time, type attitude. Franco would be around my great-grandfather's generation.

So when Franco took over he instituted a "corporate" state and basically had his cronies running the industries? What happened to the companies when he died?
 

Salv

One Too Many
Messages
1,247
Location
Just outside London
mlktrout said:
Looks like I picked a great day to join the Fedora Lounge. :eusa_clap

Since discovering Jose Iturbi I have been fascinated by Spain and all things Spanish. This thread has more useful info about the Spanish Civil War than anything else I've read. I plowed through The Spanish Civil War, The Soviet Union and Communism a few months ago and didn't learn half as much as I did from this thread. Thanks much for all these posts; now I must go back and download them for future reference!

Welcome to the Lounge, and thanks for the kind words about this thread. I've been interested in the Civil War for many years now, and it's only recently with, as Sierra Charriba pointed out, the interest shown by a new generation of Spaniards, and the opening of the Russian archives that a fuller picture of that period can be seen. Anthony Beevor's latest edition is the most comprehensive book I've read about the war, and I was pleased to see that Sierra Charriba rates it highly as well.

I'll be posting more information over the next week so stay tuned - from next Wednesday I'll be in Spain myself for two weeks with my family for our summer holiday, and I can't wait to get there. We're staying just south of Alicante, coincidentally one of the very last cities to fall to the Nationalists at the end of the war.

If you haven't seen it I can highly recommend the film Land And Freedom, directed by Ken Loach and mirroring Orwell's experiences in a POUM militia unit. Even if you have seen it, it's such a good film that it bears repeat viewings.
 

Salv

One Too Many
Messages
1,247
Location
Just outside London
Lincsong said:
Interesting. You don't sound like someone whom the Jesuits got a hold of.lol
So there weren't any "public schools" in Spain in the 1960's? All schools were parochial? It is interesting that Franco was a self described; "defender of the Roman Catholic Church" but, many Spanairds of my grandfather's (born 1890) and great-grandfather's generation (born 1880) were actually quite religously indifferent. In otherwords; send the kids to Mass, I'll come if I have the time, type attitude. Franco would be around my great-grandfather's generation.

So when Franco took over he instituted a "corporate" state and basically had his cronies running the industries? What happened to the companies when he died?

There had been an anti-clerical movement in Spain since the start of the 19th Century, plus The First Spanish Republic had been founded in 1873 following the abdication of Amadeo I. By the time you grand- and great-grandparents were born there had been, and must have continued to be, a move away from traditional Spanish beliefs. It's not that surprising that many Spaniards were indifferent to the Catholic church, even those born around the same time as Franco.
 

Barbara

One of the Regulars
Messages
100
Location
Madrid, Spain
Hi Sierra

My husband thinks you are aka Juan. He is Jose Antonio. He met up with some Spanish re-enactors in Madrid in May. They are doing a lot now. Oddly enough, I was always the one who was interested in Spain's civil war history, pestering him to ask his grandmother things (she's 97, raised 7 kids in a two-bedroom apartment in central Madrid during). No one really wanted to know, so it's great that Spain is getting back in touch with its history. Now he's the fanatic, but let it be known that I bought the first book in our household!

Barbara
Pasadena, CA
 

Sierra Charriba

One of the Regulars
Messages
111
Location
Madrid, Spain
Hello Barbara. Yes, I'm Juan. I'm very happy of talking with you. Jose Antonio is a great "compa?±ero".
It's true, the Spanish Civil War is an extraordinary subjet of interest. I can understand the fascination of many people by this dramatic episode of History. The best and worst of human beign was present there, and seventy years after we continue talking about it....
I hope to see you early in Madrid.

To Lincson: in the 60's, public schools were to the poor people, specially in big cities.The Church managed the task of education of middle class...creating much refusal between us, the students in these years. I never recovered of my hate for catholic priests. I'm sorry for the good people who has religious feelings, but I can't resist the spanish Church speech.

The companies were closed or privatized...almost all were obsolete...

To all: please, excuse my horrible english...
 

Lincsong

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,907
Location
Shining City on a Hill
Sierra;
Someone posted somewhere that he hitched hiked through Spain during the 1960's. How easy was travel through Franco's Spain? Was special permission needed? Was Spain relatively "cut off" from the rest of Europe in the 1950's and 1960's?
What about what we here in the States call the "Golden Era" generation, people born in the 1920's who came of age iduring the Civil War, what are their views? Have many people changed their views like your father? (I'm assuming that your father and mine (1925) are about the same age.)

Also, I read a biography about Franco about ten years ago and it mentioned that by the 1960's many clergy in Spain were turning against Franco. It appears that the only ally Franco had during his reign was Portugal.
 

Sierra Charriba

One of the Regulars
Messages
111
Location
Madrid, Spain
Hello, Linc
Hitch- hicker was much more common in 60's and 70's than now. And much more safe in the mind of many people. Special permission was no necessary.Now, is almost impossible to see hitch-hickers in spanish roads.

Yes, some clergy were against Franco in 70's. Where are they now? Nobody knows...
The Church is against the socialist government, in a new "crusade" (fortunately, this time without guns). They are the Bad Men in Black.

Regards
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
Sierra Charriba said:
Sierra Charriba talks:
Curiously, the best books about our war have been written by Anglo-saxon authors.


Salud y Rep??blica!

Fantastic to hear from you Sierra. Please keep it up!

On this issue: the interest of British historians reflects a deep interest in the SCW in Britain. I’d say it had a major impact on at least two generations, those who lived through the era and their children.

I was very aware of the war as a child in the 1950s. It didn’t figure in my consciousness as much as WW2, but I remember seeing old pamphlets and magazines around the house and I was aware that dad often read books on the subject. Later, in my teens, books like Hugh Thomas’s History of the SCW and Orwell’s “Homage to Catalonia” were to play a big role in shaping my own political ideas.

Of course, the fact that Franco lasted so long helped keep it a live political issue. Indeed, when I was young his continued rein was still seen as the unfinished business of WW2 and an affront to European civilization by many on the British left, while Franco remained a hero to many British Conservatives. They couldn’t express their pre-war admiration for Hitler and Mussolini any more for fear of looking unpatriotic, but they were always ready with an excuse and a good word for the Caudillo. I well remember the startling vehemance with which our campus “Young Conservatives” defended the Franco regime when I was a student in the late 60s/early 70s.
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
Sierra Charriba said:
Hello Salv
Many children of people that sympathize with Franco or the Falange during the war have leftists political feelings. You know, the generational clash. In my case, is a ideological and rational position grown during Franco's dictatorship (I'm 49 years old). My father changed his ideology along the years, and when he died, was anarchist and member of CNT. Look in "Blood of Spain" index for "Rey, Mario" if you want to know something about him.
I shall make a point of getting Blood of Spain and reading your father’s account. I’m very impressed by his political transition. It’s often said people get more right wing as they get older, but I’ve come across many examples of the opposite process.

My own father was a member of the British Young Communist League during the SCW. I believe he was involved in organizing volunteers and aid in Paris during 1936, but he was a very private man and rarely talked about his past. He was always very interested in the war and at some stage taught himself Spanish.

I know he became disillusioned with the CP during the SCW and finally quit over the Hitler-Stalin pact and the Russian invasion of Finland. By the 1970s he was quite right-wing in a lot of his views though really he couldn’t be categorized - he was a very independent thinker. He used to say it wasn’t what you thought but how you thought that mattered, and his views often surprised me. After a TV documentary on the SCW in the 80s he suddenly announced that he wished he’d fought with the Anarchists, so it looks as if he was heading in the same direction as your father! I always got the impression that the Spanish War had had a big impact on him, and I guess I inherited some of that.
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
Lincsong said:
Interesting. You don't sound like someone whom the Jesuits got a hold of.lol
So there weren't any "public schools" in Spain in the 1960's? All schools were parochial? It is interesting that Franco was a self described; "defender of the Roman Catholic Church" but, many Spanairds of my grandfather's (born 1890) and great-grandfather's generation (born 1880) were actually quite religously indifferent. In otherwords; send the kids to Mass, I'll come if I have the time, type attitude. Franco would be around my great-grandfather's generation.

So when Franco took over he instituted a "corporate" state and basically had his cronies running the industries? What happened to the companies when he died?

I don’t think Franco’s attitude to the Catholic Church was much to do with religious belief as such. He himself was not particularly religious. The Church was important because it was seen as a central pillar of authority, obedience, order and hierarchy.

The Spanish Church was almost 100% behind the Nationalist rebellion from the start. They had opposed the Republic because they were basically opposed to the whole European enlightenment project – to rationalism, freethinking, liberalism, democracy, socialism. For the Chuch the Republic’s worst crime was the introduction of religious toleration - it’s worth remembering that it wasn’t just “reds” who were murdered and persecuted by the Nationalist forces, so were members of Spain’s small Protestant and Jewish communities and the few liberal Catholic priests.

As regards the ownership of property, as far as possible Franco restored the position as it had been prior to the Republic. Where land or industry had been expropriated by the workers it was handed back to the original owners. Where it had been destroyed generous compensation was paid by the state. He certainly couldn’t be accused of handing it to his personal cronies, except in the sense that the traditional ruling class as a whole were his cronies.

I think the outstanding economic question of the SCW is the question of compensation for those forced into slave labour by the regime. Hundreds of thousands of political prisoners were used as forced labour in the construction of major public works projects and also by private companies, including some owned by British and American interests. Perhaps Sierra knows how far (if at all) this issue has been addressed in contemporary Spain?
 

Salv

One Too Many
Messages
1,247
Location
Just outside London
nightandthecity said:
...it’s worth remembering that it wasn’t just “reds” who were murdered and persecuted by the Nationalist forces, so were members of Spain’s small Protestant and Jewish communities and the few liberal Catholic priests.

...

And we musn't forget the Basques - despite their conservatism and fierce traditional Catholicism they had sided with the Republic as that alliance gave them their best hope for autonomy. Their religious beliefs did not save them from the slaughter that took place in the Basque country when it eventually fell; indeed, 16 Basque Catholic priests were shot incuding the arch-priest of Mondragon.
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
Salv said:
One of the most contentious subjects related to the Spanish Civil War. The eventual outcome of the war was almost certainly decided by the actions - or lack of actions - by the allies that both sides called on for help.
Yes, non-intervention served only to starve the Republic of arms and aid. I don’t think this was incidental, as often implied, I think it was deliberate, particularly on the part of Britain. I’ve read that Blum and the French Popular Front government were ready to intervene, but backed down when Britain made it clear that they would not support France in the event of war with Germany or Italy.

It was blindingly obvious that the Fascist powers were supplying the Nationalists with both men and materiel. For me the whole affair is summed up by the moment when the Republican government presented the Non-Intervention committee with definitive proof that the Italian troops in Spain were regular soldiers and not volunteers. The committee refused to accept the evidence on the grounds that the Spanish Republic wasn’t a member!

One of the best studies of this is Gerald Howson’s “Arms for Spain”, which was able to make use of previously inaccessible Russian archives. Howson is an aviation historian and he only wrote the book because his studies of Civil War aviation led him into regions of horrific political chicanery and double dealing on the part of all the powers.

In the case of Britain I think we have to face the fact that much of our ruling class and the ruling Conservative Party were consciously pro-fascist. This was particularly true of the hereditary aristocracy who then dominated both that class and that political party.

Salv said:
The Republic was in dire need of trained soldiers - not enough of the regular army had remained loyal, and the civilian militias were untrained and poorly armed. A solution was suggested by the Comintern - they would "proceed to the recruitment of volunteers with military experience fom the workers of all countries, with the purpose of sending them to Spain." By this time there were already several hundred foreign volunteers fighting with various units in Spain but the communists would recruit and train what would become the International Brigades. Eventually over 32,000 men from 53 different countries would serve with the International Brigades, while a further 5,000 would serve with other units, mostly the CNT and the POUM (George Orwell was part of a POUM unit).
According to Paul Preston the International Brigades suffered 16.7% deaths and 12.9% seriously wounded.

Here are two pictures of Brigaders returning to Dublin and London. I find the Dublin one particularly poignant because its such a contrast to the welcome given General O’Duffy’s fascist volunteers who got a civic parade down O’Connell Street with blessing by Bishops etc. Though to be fair his Blueshirts also endured heavy casualties (and serious disillusionment as well)

Incidentally, not forgetting this is basically a clothing forum, these are very good illustrations of how working class British and Irish people actually dressed in the late 1930s, as opposed to media representations.

irhsinternationalbrigadersdublin193.jpg


blast! I hadn't realized how ridiculously small the Dublin was. Never mind.....

DSCN5171.jpg
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
Salv said:
And we musn't forget the Basques - despite their conservatism and fierce traditional Catholicism they had sided with the Republic as that alliance gave them their best hope for autonomy. Their religious beliefs did not save them from the slaughter that took place in the Basque country when it eventually fell; indeed, 16 Basque Catholic priests were shot incuding the arch-priest of Mondragon.

....which according to Catholic doctrine should have led to the excommunication of the Nationalist leaders. It didn't, of course, as the Vatican was yet another major European institution keen to see the destruction of the Republic.
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
Lincsong said:
Sierra;

It appears that the only ally Franco had during his reign was Portugal.

Not really.....With the fall of the axis powers Spain was in the short term bereft of allies. Spain was refused admission to the newly formed UN. The guerrilla resistance in Spain intensified as former Spanish Maquisards turned their attention homewards. It was widely believed that the victorious allies would now invade Spain.

Unfortunately, the cold war (and their economic interests in Spain) meant the western powers felt Franco served their interests very well. Britain and the US led the way in recognition and support of the regime. In 1950 the US Congress granted Spain $62,500,000 credit, the first of many such loans and gifts. This can be seen as the official begining of a long alliance. In the next few years was Spain was admitted to the UN, and the US opened its Spanish military bases. By the time Eisenhower symbolically cemented the relationship with an official visit in 1959 Spain was a fully fledged member of the cold war anti-Communist alliance.
 

nightandthecity

Practically Family
Messages
904
Location
1938
The early days of the general’s revolt saw it crushed in much of eastern Spain by a dramatic counter-insurgency on the part of the workers and peasants. As the government refused to distribute arms to the population the people took matters into their own hands, requisitioning arms wherever they could, from sports shops to military arsenals. In areas where the police remained loyal they sometimes distributed arms off their own initiative. In some cases rank and file soldiers themselves mutinied and refused to obey rebel officers, opening up their arsenals to the Unions. In Barcelona the CNT dockworkers were able to commandeer two shiploads of weapons. In many areas the military rising was crushed by sheer force of numbers as hordes of poorly armed workers stormed machine gun and artillery posts.

Here are some photos of armed workers and barricades in Barcelona, 19th-20th July 1936.

barcelona1936cnt.jpg


5.gif


4.gif


1.gif


9.gif


Woman_with_cntfai_flag.jpg
 

Salv

One Too Many
Messages
1,247
Location
Just outside London
There's an exhibition of SCW Poster art and woodcuts by Helios G??mez at the Dragon Bar, 5 Leonard Street, London EC2 until July 28, organised by Christie Books who are hosting the films that nightandthecity linked to above. There are examples from the exhibition here - individual copies of the posters can be bought from Christie Books.

The CNT/FAI in particular produced some excellent posters, including this one:
p_SCW_Posters009.jpg
 

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