The Role of Education In Assigning Value to Societal Labor Sectors

[philosophygirl78]

A great many percentage of college students, and adults have no clue what the terms 'economy' or 'philosophy' actually mean... They would have to google it for a description... This, is simply not acceptable... People of my generation, the X, are the first group to be apathetic to a ground base level of reading comprehension skills, and lets not even touch on math... or science...

And what follow in the Y and Millennials is abhorrent to such... There are major 'fault lines' if you will, and there is no excuse for not repairing them. To say, well, its just the way it is, is not enough...

 

[Fading Fast]

A great many percentage of college students, and adults have no clue what the terms 'economy' or 'philosophy' actually mean... They would have to google it for a description... This, is simply not acceptable... People of my generation, the X, are the first group to be apathetic to a ground base level of reading comprehension skills, and lets not even touch on math... or science...

And what follow in the Y and Millennials is abhorrent to such... There are major 'fault lines' if you will, and there is no excuse for not repairing them. To say, well, its just the way it is, is not enough...

I would - if I had to choose - give up my "higher education" knowledge before I'd give up my basic language, math or science skills. From my interaction with Millennials, they don't have a strong foundation in - and to be straight, many simple have poor - basic English (grammar), math and science skills. I feel for them as I acquired these because they were taught to me. You were not getting out of my grammar or middle school without them. They have served me incredibly well in life in so many ways that I genuinely feel for the Millennials I know who don't have them. Yes, they are educated, yes they are smart and, yes, many of them defy the stereotype and work hard, etc. - but they don't even know how poor their basic skills are.

 

[sheeplady]

Could not agree more. I am amazed that more "liberals" aren't with me on this one as I want the players (uh, "students") to be able to negotiate salaries as, just like NFL players, they deserve their cut and would clearly be making a lot of money if allowed. Maybe it is not so bad (but still wrong) for those that go on to the pros, but many (most) do not and it is a shame that they can't earn some of the money that the schools now keep all for themselves. These are, as Lizzie says, professional minor-league feeder systems; thus, the players should get paid that way.

There's also the high risk of injury (upon which you get sent home with no degree), being steered towards lesser courses and "easy" majors (which will make it hard to find employment ), and generally taken advantage of. Your coach may make over a million a year but you get such a poor stipend (if you get a stipend) you can't eat when the dining hall is closed. And most won't go pro.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I would - if I had to choose - give up my "higher education" knowledge before I'd give up my basic language, math or science skills. From my interaction with Millennials, they don't have a strong foundation in - and to be straight, many simple have poor - basic English (grammar), math and science skills. I feel for them as I acquired these because they were taught to me. You were not getting out of my grammar or middle school without them. They have served me incredibly well in life in so many ways that I genuinely feel for the Millennials I know who don't have them. Yes, they are educated, yes they are smart and, yes, many of them defy the stereotype and work hard, etc. - but they don't even know how poor their basic skills are.

I'd have been satisfied to have been taught math properly -- and I'm no millennial at all, but the product of a chronically underfunded small-town school district with underpaid, overworked teachers, a district stripped of its accreditation a few years after I graduated from it. Not only was I not taught math well in grade school, I learned to actively dislike it, ensuring that any effort to learn it in the future would be a painful uphill struggle. I can remember my times tables, and how to calculate square footage, but that's about all I can do, or will ever be able to do.

 

[MisterCairo]

As I'se gones to university twice times (got me a skolarship), I thinc its cuz I gots a bunch of degreez that makes me tuns of munnney.

Seriously though, we look back at times (fairly recent ones at that) where university was "elitist" in the sense that you "had to be someone" in order to attend, that is, one or both of wealthy or from the "right" family. Society regarded that as wrong, that it should be open to anyone with the ability to succeed, regardless of background or (theoretically) financial means.

Now, university degrees are like a part of the anatomy - everybody has (at least) one.

Educational inflation, the need to stand out (I have a bachelor's degree - oh really, I have my master's - I have my PhD - Well, I have post-doctoral fellowship experience - etc., etc.). Degrees with no "job prospects" (is that what university is for, in whole or in large part? We certainly treat it like that), a perceived failure to appreciate skilled trades, etc.

We can't seem to get it right.

Nevertheless, both my daughters are going to university.

 

[philosophygirl78]

I'd have been satisfied to have been taught math properly -- and I'm no millennial at all, but the product of a chronically underfunded small-town school district with underpaid, overworked teachers, a district stripped of its accreditation a few years after I graduated from it. Not only was I not taught math well in grade school, I learned to actively dislike it, ensuring that any effort to learn it in the future would be a painful uphill struggle. I can remember my times tables, and how to calculate square footage, but that's about all I can do, or will ever be able to do.

You make a wonderful point here... First, I wouldn't state as a blanket that rural education is always less quality than urban, but many times it can be... My father was born in a rural province near Cefalu, Italy and was raised on a rural farm of Argentina called Las Parejas shortly after world war 2. He later legally migrated to the US and got a Master's degree in less than 4 years, and would tell me that the Math taught is Argentina Primary school was far more advanced than here (in the late 70's / 80's...

Second, what you refer to as poor math education is now a reality across the board in social public education. I do work in the Finance field as many here already know, so while I don't expect people to be able to work out differentials or quantitative finance, I am ALWAYS at a loss of words when they cannot even factor basic percentages.....

And what makes this the MOST sad, is that these people are usually the same people who claim to know or have any idea what is just or fair when it comes to US and global or corporate economic policy..... And how things "should be"....

A bit off topic, but you made the point. And I expounded.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And what makes this the MOST sad, is that these people are usually the same people who claim to know or have any idea what is just or fair when it comes to US and global or corporate economic policy..... And how things "should be"....

Well, I dunno. Seems to me you don't need to know how to make fertilizer to know when something stinks.

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

Who do I value more? The guy who hauls away my garbage, or some stockbroker in a faraway city who makes money for other people? I'll pick the garbage guy every time. He is essential to my well-being and the health of my community. But I don't write his paycheck. As somebody once wrote: The level of your income depends not on how hard you labor in the workplace but on how hard you worked in school. The ones with the least education get the lower-paying jobs. The ones who spent years studying skills that make a lot of other people a lot of money will get the big paychecks.

 

[dnjan]

If "top colleges" had any integrity at all they'd admit that their football and basketball programs are simply professional minor-league feeder systems for the NFL and NBA, and would operate them as such. They're no more "non profit amateur athletic programs" than the International League or the Pacific Coast League are for Major League Baseball.

and pay property taxes on the stadiums?

Educational institutions are some of the most hypocritical institutions we have. So "educating" ourselves out of inequality is not very likely.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The ones who spent years studying skills that make a lot of other people a lot of money will get the big paychecks.

A worker with nothing to sell but the surplus value of their labor by any other name...

 

[ChiTownScion]

I'd have been satisfied to have been taught math properly -- and I'm no millennial at all, but the product of a chronically underfunded small-town school district with underpaid, overworked teachers, a district stripped of its accreditation a few years after I graduated from it. Not only was I not taught math well in grade school, I learned to actively dislike it, ensuring that any effort to learn it in the future would be a painful uphill struggle. I can remember my times tables, and how to calculate square footage, but that's about all I can do, or will ever be able to do.

If it's any consolation, Lizzie, I went to a fairly highly rated Jesuit prep school and I still have little skills regarding math. Freshman algebra was a joke: a lazy slug of a teacher who essentially got his teaching degree and position because he wanted to avoid serving in Vietnam. There was an algebra teacher who was excellent- I had him for a pre-algebra course in summer school and, last I heard, he was still going strong at the age of ninety four teaching there. But my luck of the draw was the lazy slug... and as a result I sucked at algebra. I did well in geometry... but ended taking math after the two mandatory years of HS math.

I only really experienced the cranial light bulb illuminating in college. Took a philosophy course that was essentially Aristotelian logic (syllogisms ad nauseam) and then took the equivalent of HS Junior year Algebra II as a college course. I think that the logic course really provided a needed framework for understanding algebra. Small class and a very young adjunct faculty instructor who gave me the one- on- one tutoring that I needed. Although I never went beyond that course in math, I think that I finally "got it" in the math department- at least as far as I could ever get it. Perhaps math is like music in the respect that the right teacher can inspire a student to grasp the basics where lesser individuals simply can't.

 

[sheeplady]

I always think of it like this:
I really value the teachers at my daughter's daycare. I truly do. They deserve much higher pay, and it's a disgrace that in the United States individuals who provide early childcare are paid so very little. Basically, the man or woman hauling away your garbage is paid more. And even though hauling away the garbage is important, so is our kids. And even if they're not your kids, they are the next generation and I think we all want them to not screw it up for us when we're old.

However, we simply cannot afford to pay more for her care. It just won't work mathematically. And if we did by stretching our finances, such as giving up our second car (which I use to get to work) or eating lesser quality food, it would simply price out so many of the families that use the childcare center who make less than us, particularly single parents. I don't want to pay more, and I can't pay more.

It's a structural problem. Because childcare is paid for by individual families (as opposed to spread out over all individuals through taxes like public education) it is limited by financial matters. In addition, because "childcare" is traditionally done by women, it tends to be lesser valued than say trash removal, which is typically done by men. Added to that is the fact that it's children being cared for, who (like the elderly, frail, and other vulenarble populations) don't have much "say" in how they are treated.

There's solutions to this problem (like in some countries where nursery school and sometimes even daycare is state sponsored), but they aren't liked by a lot of people here. There's solutions to changing the "money" to match the "value" but they're not often popular.

 

[philosophygirl78]

Well, I dunno. Seems to me you don't need to know how to make fertilizer to know when something stinks.

 

[philosophygirl78]

I always think of it like this:
I really value the teachers at my daughter's daycare. I truly do. They deserve much higher pay, and it's a disgrace that in the United States individuals who provide early childcare are paid so very little. Basically, the man or woman hauling away your garbage is paid more. And even though hauling away the garbage is important, so is our kids. And even if they're not your kids, they are the next generation and I think we all want them to not screw it up for us when we're old.

However, we simply cannot afford to pay more for her care. It just won't work mathematically. And if we did by stretching our finances, such as giving up our second car (which I use to get to work) or eating lesser quality food, it would simply price out so many of the families that use the childcare center who make less than us, particularly single parents. I don't want to pay more, and I can't pay more.

It's a structural problem. Because childcare is paid for by individual families (as opposed to spread out over all individuals through taxes like public education) it is limited by financial matters. In addition, because "childcare" is traditionally done by women, it tends to be lesser valued than say trash removal, which is typically done by men. Added to that is the fact that it's children being cared for, who (like the elderly, frail, and other vulenarble populations) don't have much "say" in how they are treated.

There's solutions to this problem (like in some countries where nursery school and sometimes even daycare is state sponsored), but they aren't liked by a lot of people here. There's solutions to changing the "money" to match the "value" but they're not often popular.

It IS a structural problem... I am currently working on the system processes definition (we do this every couple of years), in an attempt to eliminate any unnecessary, ineffective policies along with checking compliance to ensure the current ones are not causing any 'holes' in conversion and production... It is Beyond frustrating to see that this is not done in most aspects of society....

 

[dnjan]

This discussion is possibly overlooking a very important factor - the value of free time.
The garbageman has significantly more free time than the stockbroker. So if free time is worth twice the stockbroker's hourly rate ...

 

[Fading Fast]

This discussion is possibly overlooking a very important factor - the value of free time.
The garbageman has significantly more free time than the stockbroker. So if free time is worth twice the stockbroker's hourly rate ...

I would expand this to say it is the entire picture of the job: time, job security, benefits, non-monetary reward, etc, should be part of the discussion. I have several friends and family members who are teaches and I have great respect for them, but I think it is, sometimes, disingenuous when they quote a salary and say teachers are "underpaid."

The teachers in the public schools that I know, all have seniority (which you get quickly as schools fire in a "last in first out method" that basically protect people who are on the job a few years or more) and have almost no chance of being fired, they also have more free time (even taking into account grading papers, lesson plans, etc.) and they have more holidays and time off in the summer than most "regular" jobs. Additionally, their benefits and pensions (which, account for about a third of the cost of labor) are far superior to most. I work on Wall Street and my friends who are married to teachers all use their spouses healthcare plans and not the financial firms because (despite the stereotype), the public school teacher's healthcare plan is better.

So, a teacher with a few years under his or her belt has incredible job security that is all but gone in the private sector, more free time than most private sector jobs and they have benefits and pensions that far exceed most private sector jobs. So, yes, in many (not all) cases the salary looks low versus other "comparable" private sector jobs, but that does not tell the entire story.

I want to emphasize that I think it is great that teachers have these benefits, my point is that it is not fair to just look at a salary and say "that person makes more / that person is underpaid / etc." without taking into account all the other aspect of their time, job security and benefits. Last point, job satisfaction is a non-monetary reward that, IMHO, explains in part why so many people want to be teachers. Quantifying it would be very subjective, but nonetheless real and should also be part of the total compensation conversation.

 

[LizzieMaine]

This discussion is possibly overlooking a very important factor - the value of free time.
The garbageman has significantly more free time than the stockbroker...

Not the garbagemen I know. Just about everyone I know who works in a non-unionized working-class job works well over a forty hour week. When I worked in the factory overtime was compulsory, and there tended to be a lot of it.

I'm no stockbroker myself, and I don't work in any kind of a "learned profession," but it's a rare week when I don't work at least sixty hours at my regular job -- usually it's closer to seventy -- and another ten or so at my two supplementary jobs. Whatever spare time I get is basically multitasked out of my regular work day. Right now I'm processing audio for one of my supplementary jobs and messing around on the Lounge while I'm waiting for it. Other times I'll be posting here while loading a film into the server at work, or previewing a film, or waiting for a deliveryman to finish unloading. But actual *spare time* where I can kick back in my bathrobe and just relax? I'm lucky if I get one day off in a month.

And I *don't* get paid overtime, I have a spitty insurance plan, no retirement, my only real job security stems from the fact that I'm the only one who knows how to work the equipment, I get no perks aside from free popcorn and soda, which will probably end up killing me -- if I don't get killed first by an exploding xenon bulb or by falling off a ladder -- and the only significant non-monetary benefit I do get, the people I work with, could be taken away from me on a whim at any time by the upper management. So, seriously, where's my added value?

I'm still not making forty grand a year between those three jobs, and I think my experience is a lot more typical of modern working-class America than the leisurely forty-hour, union-wages, good-benefit-plan, bowling-every-Monday world of Postwar Joe and Sally Punchclock.

 

[philosophygirl78]

On one side of the spectrum, the issue is quality of time. From another, the issue is choice. There are not just 3 levels of class structures in our society, but rather a multitude of steps between the 3 major (wealth, middle and poor). Because of this dynamic, we cannot assign the same value to time for a garbageman as we do for a hotelier. A Hotelier does not worry about having to pay bills every week or having to go to the grocery store, or making sure daycare is paid...

While the garbage man may spend his time worrying about how to make next month's rent, the accountant may worry about how he will send his daughter to college, and the hotelier may wonder how he will hedge currency this week. All 'time' is equally measured but not equally shared.

There are sub steps that blur the lines of assigning any sort of 'across the board value' based on income. For ex, take two college graduates in engineering. One, decides he will go work for a firm and try to climb the corporate ladder. The other, decides he hates engineering and decides to go work as a bartender in Key West. They are both 'equally' qualified to persevere economically, and have the same baseline knowledge for their trade.

In this sense, we begin to see that the problem (at least in the US) is NOT opportunity or lack thereof... The problem, is Choice.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The engineer may *choose* to become a garbageman, but the garbageman will rarely have the opportunity to *choose* to be an engineer. I'm sure we'll hear in response about someone who grew up doing their homework on the back of a shovel with a piece of charcoal, worked their way thru MIT plucking geese in a pillow factory for ten cents a week, and then became the CEO of an international technology conglomerate, but exceptions don't define the general rule. Especially not now, when socioeconomic mobility is practically at a standstill -- or even going backwards.

This is what really irritates me about Barbara Ehrenreich and other such authors who think they understand what it is to face real working-class desperation because they spent six months working at Wal-Mart or whatever. The people who have no real choice in their lives because of circumstance don't have a "real life" to go back to once the experiment is over. Such experiments are the height of bourgeois class privilege, and do nothing to promote any actual understanding of working-class lives.

 

[philosophygirl78]

Not everyone has a choice. That is true. But this is still the best country in the world if you want to make a better life for yourself and your family. The standard of living has decreased tremendously yes, especially over the past 20-30 years. But it is not due to lack of opportunity for those who want to be better. It is because of failed economic policies, imperialistic mis management and as we often speak of, the Decay of Education.....