The Return of the Man's Man

[reetpleat]

I don't but I think men who do often want to have the odds in their favor, and don't want to take the chance of being an individual instead of playing a role.

Many people, and I think a majority of men, believe coupling up is first and always a ritual, where social or evolutionary principles apply. There, it's more important to follow a script and play a role. Being yourself too early, or too often, can throw you out of the ancient ritual and ruin what is called your Game.

There are other reasons, more or less mysogynistic. Like believing that a woman will never come right out and tell you her needs or desires because they're incapable of directness, so it's better to listen to men who are experienced with women than to women themselves - especially not as individuals.

There's also the tradition that man's men get more respect from men as well as women, and are less likely to try to interfere in your relationship just to be predatory or show they can. One telling of the legend.

I don't consider it misogynistic to say that you can not usually rely on what women say they want, and are better off relying on men who know what women respond to. it is not insult. The fact, as i see it, is that women do not make their decisions on rational thought, but on emotions. We all do. But men are more aware of it, I think. Men do not pick a woman for rational reasons, and admit it freely.

Women, being more tuned into their feelings generally, respond to them. So, when they say what they want, but then respond to something different, that is just the way it works.

Salesmen will be the first to tell you people buy emotionally more than rationally.

Why should we choose mates any differently? Noinsult in making an observation like that. It is just human nature.

 

[reetpleat]

It's hard for a man to stand by and watch other men work...

A man, when describing what he believes to be "manly qualities", shouldn't spend the rest of the thread, conversation, day, etc... trying to justify his position. That is weak and borderline crawfishing. If you believe something, say it. Period. Don't say it then add: "Well, of course, uh...those are admirable qualities in a woman, too...uh...they're flowers...but uh...like resillient desert flowers...uh...I didn't mean to assert myself...you know... uh, too strongly...don't want to, you know, offend...uh...anyone." Weak. Say what you think, what you believe.
Any woman* worth carrying on a conversation with will hear what you have to say and make her own decisions. And that's who you marry...awwwwww. It's like apologizing about your religion, fer crimony.


*any person

You obviously have not dated women in the Pacific Northwest. they will tear you a new one for talking too directly.

Ironically, many women complain to me about what passive aggressive, whimpy guys they always meet. but i blame them for creating the atmosphere in which guys are afraid to be guys, then i blame the guys for letting them. Me,Ii strike the balance between being a real man and a sensitive nurturing guy. It seems to go over well here. But, as Fletch points out, sometimes you gotta throw a little game around, before you can show the sensitivity that your strength allows you to have.

 

[reetpleat]

In other words, what makes a man's man, is the refusal to consider logic, take directions or consider anyone else's opinions on matters of self?


lol



In other words...list some -unique- to Man's men qualities...otherwise you are not describing the group as being unique from any other group.

Actually, most men are too logical. there is more to life than logic and rational thinking. there is nothing logical about bringing a girl flowers instead of a vacuum cleaner. but it is the smart thing to do.

As for considering other's opinions. there must be a balance. Nothing worse than a person that considers other people's opinions too much.

As for men or women, i think it is often more beneficial and typical in the sphere where women tend to exist, to consider other people's feelings and opinions. It is often beneficial in the sphere where men tend to exist, and where certain things are expected of them, to do what needs to be done and spend less time considering other people's feelings and opinions.

granted, we seem to be moving to a place where both sexes are more free to move into the other sphere. this is a good thing. Now, if men would just let women do so, and if only women would allow men to do so without being looked down on for it.

 

[reetpleat]

I know this is a -manly man- topic...and you all don't really care about the opinion of females in this discussion...but its a pretty sad discussion when the only concrete things you can come up with as examples of 'man's man' as characteristics rather then superficial.......are not things exclusive to the half of humanity that has a penis.

Would you not want the characteristics of the Kipling poem to apply to your wives, your daughters, your sisters?

I will post it again just so no one has to scroll back up

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!


Other then that last line.... those are the characteristics of a good -human-

Would you not want your wife to keep her head about her when doing rough things..or in emergencies ....etc?


And 'self control'?

again...a great quality in both sexes of the human species....

Nothing -unique- to men.....and if you honestly think it is.....

While I don't disagree wit this point, there are good qualities and bad qualities, and we all want the good qualities in everyone. I think this line of reasoning gets hung up on particlulars and misses the big picture. Surely, there is no true all female or all male, or in othe words, no male is 100% male, and no female is 100% female. of course not. What would that even mean.

But, I do believe there is male energy (for lack of a better word) and male mindset. Evolutionary, biological, spiritual? Who knows. But there seems to be a male realm and certain qualities of it. One large characteristic I phrase as doing what needs to be done. No matter what. Identifying and doing it.

certainly, women can have this quality. Some very much so. But i consider that a case of them tapping into that male, solid, unchanging energy.

While at the same time, when a man is nurturing, sensitive, creative, fluid, and not so focused on what needs to be done and oing it, but rather, on making people feel good, be nurtured, etc, then he is demonstrating his masculine energy. it is no coincidence that many men in the creative visual fields are gay.

Some men get too caught up in the male, and some women get too caught up in the female. This would be spending all day talking about feelings, for example. Certainly, knowing your feelings and discussing them is a good thing. but not if that is all you can do.

I do not care for women who are too much in that energy, or "girly" as the term might be. I do not like women who can't kill a spider, and never leave the house without spending an hour on make up.

But that is me. Some guys love it. Likewise, those women would probably choose the macho jock, or strong silent military guy who never shows his feelings, but you know you can count on him in a firefight or emergency, over me.

From what I know of you, I think you are a woman that can move easily and by choice between the two opposite poles. This is a good thing.

biggest problem is that our culture tends to value the male and devalue the female, so women take offense when it is suggested that they are not as inclined in the male realm. this is not a shortcoming. Just a different way of being.

 

[kiltie]

You obviously have not dated women in the Pacific Northwest. they will tear you a new one for talking too directly.

Why in the world would you want to sustain a conversation with ANY person like that?

My mom can "tear me a new one".
My dad can "tear me a new one".
Officers (with more time on than me) can "tear me a new one".

That about covers it. Kowtow-ing to a female doesn't change the fact that you're still trying to score ( I'm talking about modern dating here, not someone you're in luuuuuv with ). She may think she's laying down the law, but at the end of the day, she's still getting *explitive*.

It's sad that asserting ones self is so easily reduced to being disrespectful.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

While I don't disagree wit this point, there are good qualities and bad qualities, and we all want the good qualities in everyone. I think this line of reasoning gets hung up on particlulars and misses the big picture. Surely, there is no true all female or all male, or in othe words, no male is 100% male, and no female is 100% female. of course not. What would that even mean.

But, I do believe there is male energy (for lack of a better word) and male mindset. Evolutionary, biological, spiritual? Who knows. But there seems to be a male realm and certain qualities of it. One large characteristic I phrase as doing what needs to be done. No matter what. Identifying and doing it.

certainly, women can have this quality. Some very much so. But i consider that a case of them tapping into that male, solid, unchanging energy.

While at the same time, when a man is nurturing, sensitive, creative, fluid, and not so focused on what needs to be done and oing it, but rather, on making people feel good, be nurtured, etc, then he is demonstrating his masculine energy. it is no coincidence that many men in the creative visual fields are gay.

Some men get too caught up in the male, and some women get too caught up in the female. This would be spending all day talking about feelings, for example. Certainly, knowing your feelings and discussing them is a good thing. but not if that is all you can do.

I do not care for women who are too much in that energy, or "girly" as the term might be. I do not like women who can't kill a spider, and never leave the house without spending an hour on make up.

But that is me. Some guys love it. Likewise, those women would probably choose the macho jock, or strong silent military guy who never shows his feelings, but you know you can count on him in a firefight or emergency, over me.

From what I know of you, I think you are a woman that can move easily and by choice between the two opposite poles. This is a good thing.

biggest problem is that our culture tends to value the male and devalue the female, so women take offense when it is suggested that they are not as inclined in the male realm. this is not a shortcoming. Just a different way of being.

Just to clarify, I was not taking offense at all.

More stating that a "lets define 'man's men' discussion, that then lists 98% things or characteristics that are not even close to being 'male predominant' traits ...is not a discussion of man's men at all.

I find attributing these things to 'man's men' quite silly and rather pointless in terms of a discussion, that's all. By most of these 'definitions' given here, I am a man's man too, as numerous other women, men of both orientations, etc.

If we are attributing that 'men's men' are somehow different then other men, etc. that -requires- listing some unique characteristics that no other group possesses. Not a 100% non overlapping list, but -something- defining.

Otherwise, it's just not a 'grouping' of its own.

 

[kiltie]

In other words, what makes a man's man, is the refusal to consider logic, take directions or consider anyone else's opinions on matters of self?


lol



In other words...list some -unique- to Man's men qualities...otherwise you are not describing the group as being unique from any other group.

This sort of thing slays me. As to "openmindedness", when is a person, in your estimation, permitted to make a decision about their life and how they're going to live it? I'm open minded. I'm open minded until I gather the facts and opinions, the pros and cons. Then I make a decision for ME. I won't carry on about "manly qualities" and their justifications, lest I contradict my first post in this thread, but I will say this:
Maintaining a policy of constant openmindedness ( is that a word? ) leads to comprimising your values, morals, ethics, standards, what-have-you... Without making resolute decisions one will, at best, be viewed as weak and at worst, a fool. These are things perceived at an unconcious level by people. I swear to...I'm going to reference some old study material here: who do you think are the so-called "informal leaders" of groups?
Manliness and qualities relative to the subject are not likely to be conveyed and/or understood on this forum. I do not strive toward any particular degree of "manliness", but I can say there are qualities in people I've had close assosiations with, have read about, etc... that I aspire to. I can say that my actions are based on values and both consious and unconsious decisions, and that, for the vast majority of times, I adhere to those decisions. I've also done things that are purely acts of cowardice ( in avoiding "real life" ). The fact that I recognize that, I believe, is something of a manly quality, in that I am able to resolve never to do them again.
I will even be bold and say MOST men feel this way ( and about what my first post covered ) and if they say they don't, they are liars. They are lying because: A) they are attempting to remain in someone's good graces, B) they are trying to "hook up" [ which is really an extension of "A" ], or C) they are saying what the current programming is pushing, and they want to make sure they say all the right things to get the big job or whatever [ which is really just an extension of "A" ]. So - A.
They are wolves in sheeps clothing. I've played along once or twice, but I'd just as soon been readily identified as a wolf.

 

[reetpleat]

Just to clarify, I was not taking offense at all.

More stating that a "lets define 'man's men' discussion, that then lists 98% things or characteristics that are not even close to being 'male predominant' traits ...is not a discussion of man's men at all.

I find attributing these things to 'man's men' quite silly and rather pointless in terms of a discussion, that's all. By most of these 'definitions' given here, I am a man's man too, as numerous other women, men of both orientations, etc.

If we are attributing that 'men's men' are somehow different then other men, etc. that -requires- listing some unique characteristics that no other group possesses. Not a 100% non overlapping list, but -something- defining.

Otherwise, it's just not a 'grouping' of its own.

Not necessarily. Consider it this way. It is not only men, but the qualities that people expect, or are common to men. The things men are judged by by other men and by women. Man's man assumes it is a guy who men will consider manly, but that is a whole nother thread.

certainly we would like these traits in a woman, but many men do not consider them th most important. For example, many men want nothing more from a woman than that she be warm and soft and smell good when he comes home from a hard days work, then is a nurturing, sensitive good mother to their children. He might even like the fact that she is not comfortable dealing with things he can do for her. In fact, the more traditional manly a guy is, the more he probably likes a woman who is not.

Not saying that is my tastes.

Point is, these characteristics are fine in a woman. Even good. But not what a lot of people look to women for. women have their own qualities that people appreciate in them.

But of course, many women possess good qualities of both.

 

[kiltie]

Duty is the essence of manhood.

-George S. Patton



Also, with regards to what I posted two entries up:


The time to take counsel of your fears is before you make an important battle decision. That's the time to listen to every fear you can imagine! When you have collected all the facts and fears and made your decision, turn off all your fears and go ahead!

- George S. Patton

I found these while I was looking up the June 4, 1944 Third Army speech. I was going to post some excerpts, sort of tongue in cheek, but these two really rang out.

 

[Chas]

I was never aware that the "man's man" was ever gone. At least not in my world.

I work in a primarily female profession, so it comes as no great surprise that I enjoy the company of masculine men; gay or straight and whatever they do for a living. I think that I have an unstated need for balance. It's a ying-yang thang.

I don't take cues from popular culture, it's very much an internalized ideal and I don't expect or seek approval from anybody or any group. What I find interesting is that there is always a price to be paid for being an individual in a society that supposedly lauds the idea that one should be an individual. What I see is a lot of sheep and gadget-obsessed automotons.

"to thine own self be true".

 

[Fletch]

I'll take you ALL on

I was never aware that the "man's man" was ever gone. At least not in my world.

I work in a primarily female profession, so it comes as no great surprise that I enjoy the company of masculine men; gay or straight and whatever they do for a living. I think that I have an unstated need for balance. It's a ying-yang thang.

I don't take cues from popular culture, it's very much an internalized ideal and I don't expect or seek approval from anybody or any group. What I find interesting is that there is always a price to be paid for being an individual in a society that supposedly lauds the idea that one should be an individual. What I see is a lot of sheep and gadget-obsessed automotons.

Interesting you prefer to socialize with those you consider traditionally manly, even tho you don't feel part of that group. I'm very guarded and quiet in groups where there is a very dominant, traditional man - I always think he's going to smell me out as a beta male and make some kind of example of me, lay down the law, put me in my place.

I don't seek approval myself, but I am very attuned to disapproval, and it's common coin in interactions between men. It's how we establish rank and determine who's in vs. who's out - things I resent.

Duty is the essence of manhood.

-George S. Patton

No, it isn't. Not unless the following apply:
a) women have no duties, or theirs aren't somehow formative of their womanhood
b) the martial is the essence of manhood (I agree duty is the essence of the martial)
c) men are, as one post-feminist puts it, "human doings, not human beings"

Care to speculate? What's specially male about duty? Why must it be the highest value for a man?

I do believe there is male energy (for lack of a better word) and male mindset. Evolutionary, biological, spiritual? Who knows. But there seems to be a male realm and certain qualities of it. One large characteristic I phrase as doing what needs to be done. No matter what. Identifying and doing it.

That's one likely answer to the Q I pose just above. But what if it's too reductive - what if that "male realm" is in a way less than human? What if what "really" makes a man is the will to sometimes be a machine, with no conscience, no caring, no ethics, just some kind of pre-programmed robot steamroller?

I think that imperative comes from the industrial era. Man as loyal cog in vast organizations, never questioning, optimally efficient at all times. I think it was pernicious thinking then and is even more so today.

I'll speak up for determination, the duty to do the right and the needful even at great cost. But I won't put a gender on those attributes.

While at the same time, when a man is nurturing, sensitive, creative, fluid, and not so focused on what needs to be done and oing it, but rather, on making people feel good, be nurtured, etc, then he is demonstrating his masculine energy.

You meant feminine energy, no?

it is no coincidence that many men in the creative visual fields are gay.

1. You're kind of pulling the visual fields out of nowhere. 2. As far as that goes, you're pulling gayness out of nowhere, too. Consider the New York modernist painters of the 40s and 50s - hardass boozing woman-smacking abstractionists. You needn't be gay, or even particularly nurturing, to be a great painter, and in that era and those styles, it would probably have been career suicide.

 

[Chas]

Interesting you prefer to socialize with those you consider traditionally manly, even tho you don't feel part of that group. I'm very guarded and quiet in groups where there is a very dominant, traditional man - I always think he's going to smell me out as a beta male and make some kind of example of me, lay down the law, put me in my place.

I don't seek approval myself, but I am very attuned to disapproval, and it's common coin in interactions between men. It's how we establish rank and determine who's in vs. who's out - things I resent.

Yeah, me too. My male friends tend to be men who are masculine but not domineering or pushy. They seem pretty happy, relaxed individuals who are not, as such, jockeying for pack dominance. I loathe bullies and sometimes even enjoy confronting them on their b.s. I guess I should have specified masculine vs. dominant. I don't feel the need to dominate anyone apart from my self (self-control?).

 

[Fletch]

My friends - male or female - tend to be easygoing yet interesting people. (Perhaps for that reason, I don't have many. Most easygoing people are sheep, and most interesting people are neurotics. [huh])

You bring up an important fact, tho: I assume any archetypal male - strong silent type, say, or smooth big-shot executive - is going to judge me. He doesn't have to jockey around to exude those alpha rays.

 

[kiltie]

Care to speculate? What's specially male about duty? Why must it be the highest value for a man?

.

No I do not.
Brother, it was a quote I cribbed offa the internet that I though was applicable and even a bit amusing, considering. Nothing more.
Your response ( and many of those posted ) seems to border on apologetic. Like the Patton quote, I say "seems to" because I don't want to speculate on your motives; that's just how it reads to me.
The subject is on manly qualities, as I understand it. Not what makes a man. It's not the qualities themselves, per se, but, I believe, the way in which those qualities are outwardly portrayed.
I PM'd Miss Neecerie ( sp? ) what I felt, because it seemed like, metaphorically, I got up it her face a little bit and I didn't mean to come off that way. The message is meant for her, so I'd just as soon not have to comment on it to anyone but her, but I'll post it just the same -

MANNISH - MANLY

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just got this...

"In other words...list some -unique- to Man's men qualities...otherwise you are not describing the group as being unique from any other group"

...and I see what you're saying now. I'll have to try and think of something besides "A huge ***** ", I guess.
I understand what you're saying though. At the end of the day, I suppose it's just something you have to see. Could you ever convey what it is that makes you love someone? Do you really think you could ever make someone understand what love is to you? That feeling like, no matter how deeply you breathe in you'll never get enough air to fill the vast expanse that another person has opened up inside of you. That you actually ( not in a cannibalistic sense ) want to consume someone? The smell on your clothes... a conversation you could never have with anyone else... Christmas, as a child...

Abstracts.

I think that's what you'd get out of me if I were to honestly describe "manly" qualities.

Jeremy
__________________
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams

It's not a thing I think you can quantify. Like the Ween song says: "I can't put my finger on it..."

 

[reetpleat]

Interesting you prefer to socialize with those you consider traditionally manly, even tho you don't feel part of that group. I'm very guarded and quiet in groups where there is a very dominant, traditional man - I always think he's going to smell me out as a beta male and make some kind of example of me, lay down the law, put me in my place.

I don't seek approval myself, but I am very attuned to disapproval, and it's common coin in interactions between men. It's how we establish rank and determine who's in vs. who's out - things I resent.

No, it isn't. Not unless the following apply:
a) women have no duties, or theirs aren't somehow formative of their womanhood
b) the martial is the essence of manhood (I agree duty is the essence of the martial)
c) men are, as one post-feminist puts it, "human doings, not human beings"

Care to speculate? What's specially male about duty? Why must it be the highest value for a man?

That's one likely answer to the Q I pose just above. But what if it's too reductive - what if that "male realm" is in a way less than human? What if what "really" makes a man is the will to sometimes be a machine, with no conscience, no caring, no ethics, just some kind of pre-programmed robot steamroller?

I think that imperative comes from the industrial era. Man as loyal cog in vast organizations, never questioning, optimally efficient at all times. I think it was pernicious thinking then and is even more so today.

I'll speak up for determination, the duty to do the right and the needful even at great cost. But I won't put a gender on those attributes.

You meant feminine energy, no?

1. You're kind of pulling the visual fields out of nowhere. 2. As far as that goes, you're pulling gayness out of nowhere, too. Consider the New York modernist painters of the 40s and 50s - hardass boozing woman-smacking abstractionists. You needn't be gay, or even particularly nurturing, to be a great painter, and in that era and those styles, it would probably have been career suicide.

Wow, a lot here to comment on. Firstly, I feel bad that you would be so intimidated by other men. There is nothing wrong with being more balanced and less the traditional alpha male, but I never consider myself Beta because I don't insist on being alpha. In certain situations I will step up and take charge if need be. But often, i let other guys who seem intent on it take care of that. i sometimes don't like guys who are too masculine, others I can appreciate. But I don't always relate that well. But i generally don't feel intimidated or less than. I am just different. Not inferior. And I have no trouble finding women who appreciate me over the overly manly men.

I think you may be falling into the common cultural idea that manliness is less than or inferior. While I will never say men are being oppressed by women, feminism has in some ways left us with the idea that men are only half developed and need to be more like women, the superior gender. God knows, the world needs people who can do instead of be sometimes. I see nothing wrong with defining yourself by what you do. I do not consider it an industrial age thing either. It has been perverted and used by industry. But men have always been the warriors, hunters, etc.

Yes, I did mean feminine energy.

As for painters, many of the abstract expressionists were gay, but point taken about the art field. It may well be that to make it in that realm you have to have a certain swagger and macho posture. I was thinking more clothing design, set design in theater and movies, and that type of thing. gay men seem to be more tuned into aesthetic tastes than straight men in a lot of ways.

 

[Bustercat]

The point of the article is selling a product. Manliness is the new Metrosexual.

Ha ha, well said.
Shifting with the wind with every trend to make yourself more appealing to other people is about as unmanly as it gets.

 

[Foofoogal]

Throwing out a few tidbit thoughts:
---------------
1. To some a real mans man wouldn't even be on the internet. He would be out fishing or hunting or building a fence or something. lol
2. There are man men and and like a rare thing once in awhile one will stumble across a true alpha male.

When this happens male and female alike know it instantly. Men flee and women gulp. lol

being bad today..lol

 

[jwalls]

Do what thy manhood bids thee do,
From none but self expect applause;
He noblest lives and noblest dies
Who makes and keeps his self made laws.
Sir Richard Francis Burton

The essence of Manhood.

 

[SGT Rocket]

They are wolves in sheeps clothing. I've played along once or twice, but I'd just as soon been readily identified as a wolf.

sort of fftopic:
If it comes to wolves, sheep and sheepdogs; I'm a sheepdog.

 

[Mr Vim]

I apologize in advance but cannot help but comment on the following: I think these topics start very light hearted and superficial, a commentary on the overall idea of the return of man's man such as the popularity of traditional shaving etc so I try to stay out of the deeper wells of the soul that these threads dip into after a couple of pages.

It seems this happens a lot. Perhaps I am just simple and happy.