The "Organic" Trend - do you believe the hype?

[Hemingway Jones]

It is one thing to say 'My animal needs a shot of medicine once a season because it is sick', but now, the norm is 'My animal needs a shot and medicine in its food to keep it from getting sick'.

You cant compare carful breeding and selection over thousands of years by man to create these domesticated animals to the abrupt disregard of all those lessons learned to play to the glut of 'yield' in mass production.

...
So yeah, in that since, I guess you are right.

LD

We live in an age when human parts are being grown and implanted, certainly there is some flexibility in our collective morality. Many of those who back the potential life saving techniques of bio-tech medicine, some of which require or portend the harvesting of human materials, oppose the same techniques when used in agriculture. Selective breeding is a euphemism for culling those animals, which were not displaying the desired traits. Medicated or destroy, inject with steroids or cull, the intent remains the same.

It is a complex issued riddled with relativist pitfalls, but the bottom line is, if you want it pure, you had better grow it or raise it yourself.

 

[B. F. Socaspi]

NO KIDDING.

I found out by reading some of the store-brand labels at one of the local supermarket chains that they get their food from China. CHINA?!?!?!?! For our FOOD??!!??! Doesn't America grow enough of it here?!?!?! Where does the stuff the US farms grow go to?

I mean, I know it's a global economy and all, but why would I buy garlic from China when I live in California and we have Gilroy, for heaven's sake?!?!?

I wonder if people knew more of where their food was from in the supermarkets, they'd change their spending habits more?

RD

It's because the majority of grain produced by America is used to feed our livestock. In fact, it takes four pounds of edible grain to make one pound of edible beef. If the world were vegan, we could healthily feed the population with relative ease.

 

[B. F. Socaspi]

I think that this thread is very relevant to any era. Vegetarianism is very old and has been around since Victorian times. And nutrition, food trends etc. have been a part of every era since. I say it is appropriately "vintage flavored!"

You could bring it back waaaay further than that. Man's anatomy is that of an herbivore. Religions have been veg*n since civilization's beginnings.

But yes, it did come into the public eye around that time. I just like to nitpick

 

[B. F. Socaspi]

Beef and poultry are genetically engineered food. Through generations of careful breeding or steroid injection or chemical controls they are so far from the source animals as to be unrecognizable. They certainly wouldn't fare in the wild, neither could some of them reproduce. It would be nice if they were treated kinder, but I doubt they are having the existential crisis we are projecting onto them.
QUOTE]

Pigs are one of the smartest animals in the world, smarter than human children up to about 5 years I believe. I agree, it is unfeasible to expect them to survive in the wild, but to say they are unable to suffer the same as a human can is a moot point, unless you believe that children don't suffer the same as adults.

 

[Lady Day]

We live in an age when human parts are being grown and implanted, certainly there is some flexibility in our collective morality. Many of those who back the potential life saving techniques of bio-tech medicine, some of which require or portend the harvesting of human materials, oppose the same techniques when used in agriculture. Selective breeding is a euphemism for culling those animals, which were not displaying the desired traits. Medicated or destroy, inject with steroids or cull, the intent remains the same.

It is a complex issued riddled with relativist pitfalls, but the bottom line is, if you want it pure, you had better grow it or raise it yourself.

Um, okay.
This has noting to do with morality and the hop scotch to genetic growing of human organs, from an over dose of antibiotics in animal feed, that leap I have yet to process.

I am quite aware of the the times we live in and a pig being used to grow a human ear is quite a different animal (pun intended) than the one being used for pork chops in that tv dinner.

So, I think we should curtail this conversation back to food, and food production, unless my broccoli is going to be shipped with reproduced cornea implants

LD

 

[B. F. Socaspi]

Here's an interesting conundrum for the fish fans here. Do you purchase fresh fish if you have polluted water locally, or do you purchase flash frozen?

 

[Lady Day]

We live in an age when human parts are being grown and implanted, certainly there is some flexibility in our collective morality. Many of those who back the potential life saving techniques of bio-tech medicine, some of which require or portend the harvesting of human materials, oppose the same techniques when used in agriculture. Selective breeding is a euphemism for culling those animals, which were not displaying the desired traits. Medicated or destroy, inject with steroids or cull, the intent remains the same.

It is a complex issued riddled with relativist pitfalls, but the bottom line is, if you want it pure, you had better grow it or raise it yourself.

Um, okay.
This has noting to do with morality and the hop scotch to genetic growing of human organs, from an over dose of antibiotics in animal feed, that leap I have yet to process.

I am quite aware of the the times we live in, and fast does not always mean better. And a pig being used to grow a human ear is quite a different animal (pun intended) than the one being used for pork chops in that tv dinner.

So, I think we should curtail this conversation back to food, and food production, unless my broccoli is going to be shipped with reproduced cornea implants

LD

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Um, okay.
This has noting to do with morality and the hop scotch to genetic growing of human organs, from an over dose of antibiotics in animal feed, that leap I have yet to process.

I am quite aware of the the times we live in and a pig being used to grow a human ear is quite a different animal (pun intended) than the one being used for pork chops in that tv dinner.

So, I think we should curtail this conversation back to food, and food production, unless my broccoli is going to be shipped with reproduced cornea implants

LD

Agreed, this is not the place to discuss the matter in full. In fact, this isn't really the place to discuss the matter at all. The entire discussion is beyond the scope of what we do. [huh]

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

It would be nice if they were treated kinder, but I doubt they are having the existential crisis we are projecting onto them.

Be wary and suspicious of anything you put in your body. If you truly want to be pure, then don't put anything into your mouth that you have not witnessed its handling through the entire delivery process, no matter what it says on the label.

I actually don't think the animals are having an existential crisis, but I wonder why those who are treating them so badly aren't.

Further, I am not of the school who believes that humans aren't meant to eat meat. Humans have teeth and enzymes for both meat and veg.

I would LOVE to grow my own...everything! Course, I'd need a yard first.

 

[Feraud]

I actually don't think the animals are having an existential crisis, but I wonder why those who are treating them so badly aren't.

Well said.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Well said.

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

[carter]

Ok, maybe it's the Outer Limits

Has anyone else noticed that this is at least the second thread that recently veered from it's stated intent into the FL version of The Twilight Zone? In this case, an organic question hyperventilated into genetic engineering, cloning of human organs, animal existentialism, and collective morality? [huh] In the past 24 hours, this is the 2nd thread that read like an alien abduction before getting back (so to speak) on track. I'm not saying this is good or bad, do not pretend to know the "right people", or make any judgement. It's actually pretty entertaining if you start at the beginning and read right through the space-time continuum until exiting the rabbit hole, hopefully with Alice in tow.

BTW, selective breeding is not a modern phenomena. It has been practiced for thousands of years with many and varied kinds of livestock and agrarian products. There are far more examples than one can list but cattle, sheep, horses, flowers, and grains are some that were selectively bred with no chemical or gentic manipulation long ago.
Nor is/was selective breeding always done to remove culls. Selective Breeding is not a euphemisism for culling unless someone applies an extremely narrow and biased definition of the term. It was often done to improve a breed or to create something more consistently than the rarities that spontaneously occur(red) from time to time. This in no way implied the destruction of baseline stock. Actually, the maintainence of original stock was and is very important. As far as the entire Twilight Zone detour is concerned, this part of the discussion may be/have-been the only vintage aspect to it.

 

[Red Diabla]

It's because the majority of grain produced by America is used to feed our livestock. In fact, it takes four pounds of edible grain to make one pound of edible beef. If the world were vegan, we could healthily feed the population with relative ease.

Well, veganism wasn't my point, and it's interesting that I used a garlic example and you came back with a meat example. You can try and tell me that Gilroy's garlic is mainly being used to feed the livestock at Harris Ranch in central California, but I'm not sure that's true.

California is in the top 10 economies of the world by itself when it comes to agriculture, but the big supermarkets here don't have local CA produce, they go to a different continent?! I still find that weird.

RD

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

In this case, an organic question hyperventilated into genetic engineering, cloning of human organs, animal existentialism, and collective morality? [huh] In the past 24 hours, this is the 2nd thread that read like an alien abduction before getting back (so to speak) on track. I'm not saying this is good or bad, do not pretend to know the "right people", or make any judgement. It's actually pretty entertaining if you start at the beginning and read right through the space-time continuum until exiting the rabbit hole, hopefully with Alice in tow.

Just the natural ebb and flow of conversation my friend. Kind of like when people talk in, you know, real life. What's that you ask? It's *not* the internets! lol

 

[Foofoogal]

California is in the top 10 economies of the world by itself when it comes to agriculture, but the big supermarkets here don't have local CA produce

I find this amazing. I have never ever been to California and have no desire really as I am ascared of earthquakes but I always think of the Grapes of Wrath and the description of the abundance of crops.

 

[carter]

Just the natural ebb and flow of conversation my friend. Kind of like when people talk in, you know, real life. What's that you ask? It's *not* the internets! lol

lol lol lol fftopic:

It's even more like circulating through a crowded room and picking up snippets of different conversations. Kind of like a scene of a soiree in a Merchant and Ivory film. Just picture the room, the people, the clothes, the lighting, and the background music. I'll use the soundtrack from It's All About Love (2003). fftopic:

 

[Foofoogal]

Another consideration to make and why I would love to have more family farms is the cost. I am pretty sure most people would love to eat healthy organic food and feed it to their children especially but it is very expensive usually in the major food stores. People should not feel ashamed they cannot buy the best organic for their children or themselves.
If local can be found it is a great help to these families.
Not sure about me buying my meat from local farmer but if I knew they practiced good hygiene and such I might would consider it.
Even eggs I want to see where and how they harvest them from the chickens. I used to raise chickens and if you ever hear of anyone saying they found a chick or such in their eggs so they will not eat farm eggs it is because they bought from a very lazy farmer.
Everyone should be able to eat a healthy meal. I just wonder if the government would regulate these small farmers to death with goofy rules though if it became successful.

 

[LordBest]

Actually, if Vegenism was adopted by the entire world population it would be an environmental disaster, with hundreds and hundredsof animal species lost and many ecosystems which have evolved over time to suit the domestication of animals lost. Not to mention the immense loss of cultural traditions dating back many centuries in some cases. Now, this is not an anti-vegan rant, I have no right to tell anyone what they can and can not eat, but you can not let a lifestyle choice guide such an important issue as world food supply. Humans would not have been able to evolve without becoming omnivores*, it is part of us and always will be. Vegen projections of how much food we could grow if available farm land was put to use growing vegetables instead of meat tend to forget that much land used for animal farming is not suitable for vegetable farming. Then there is the issue on vegen over-relience in synthetic sources of nutrients, particularly vitamin B12. I could go on but this is not the place for it. As I said this is not an anti-vegen rant, every one has the choice to eat what they like for whatever reason they like, as it should be.


*Two primary reasons, the first is that animal protein is a higher quality food source than most unprocessed vegetable matter, in that it takes far less energy to digest and utilise the nutrients. This allowed early human ancestors to harness this excess energy for brain development. Second it allowed humans a far greater range of viable habitat, as we could eat practically anything.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

fftopic:

I have to say that the *only* nutrient you can't get from vegetable products is B12, and even that you can get from a certain kind of yeast. There's no reason to "over rely" on synthetic vitamins if you're vegan. Besides, plenty of meat eaters take synthetic vitamins every day.

I know you weren't attacking vegans LordBest, but honestly, it seems like those who DO attack vegans always latch onto that B12 thing. It's silly.

fftopic:

 

[LordBest]

fftopic:

I have to say that the *only* nutrient you can't get from vegetable products is B12, and even that you can get from a certain kind of yeast. There's no reason to "over rely" on synthetic vitamins if you're vegan. Besides, plenty of meat eaters take synthetic vitamins every day.

I know you weren't attacking vegans LordBest, but honestly, it seems like those who DO attack vegans always latch onto that B12 thing. It's silly.

fftopic:

Well quite, it is hardly a nail in the coffin of vegenism. I am a devoted omnivore and I had to take vitamin B12 injections for some time at one point. As for other nutrients, yes you can get them from other vegetables but the amounts required are quite large, some estimates say that for a healthy sustainable living 9kgs of vegetables are required per day, less when you introduce legumes and soy and whatnot. So synthetic vitamins are used as they are cheaper and easier than eating the full amount of vegetables required.

I am not knocking vegenism in anyway (I know I have said it twice before but I want it absolutely clear) but I do question its viability as a global solution to food supply. In the last 10,000 years the amount of animal protein in our diet has decreased with the dawn of agriculture, and our brain size has decreased by 8% as well. I recommend reading Body mass and encephalization in Pleistocene Homo by Ruff, Trinkaus and Holliday, Nature, vol. 387, for more information on this point. This is a relatively short term change in human evolutionary terms, we have evolved an omnivores gut, so who knows what effect the whole sale adoption of a vegen diet could have on successive generations of humans?
Anyway, this is quite off topic so I shall not post on the matter again.

Back on the organic topic, there is a growing trend, particularly in New Zealand I understand, for those with around an acre of suitable land to purchase a certain type of cow to provide them with dairy in the face of rising costs. Apparently cows of this particular breed have a high feed to milk ratio, so families are finding it far more economical to own a single cow and utilise its milk, than to buy the stuff. Hormone free milk to boot. I heartily approve and wish I had the room for a cow.