The Lost Art of Manliness

[Feraud]

Being in harm's way is manly?
Female entertainers might be confused to know that..

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Being in harm's way is manly?
Female entertainers might be confused to know that..

Nah. It's called "ballsy."

 

[bettydarling]

This thread has been a thorn in my side for days, days I tells ya!

Somehow the conversation of manliness has come up in a few conversations since seeing the thread last week. Last night was a prime example. Standing around minding my own business drinking some fruit punch at a party, a guy pokes me in the ribs to ask me what I thought about whether it was true that men have three simple requirements, food, sleep and sex. He went on ad nauseum about how complex women are and how simple men are and how men are basically cave men in modern times and why would men need all these emotions and moisturisers etc etc!

Ooohhhh the despair. It was a party, and he was saying much of it in jest trying to get a reaction from me but I do hate the macho rubbish that some guys come out with. Men (and women) have always taken pride in their appearance to some extent, it may be much more apparent these days with oodles of cosmetics and advertising but we've always made an effort. You just have to look any indigenous culture or mating ritual in nature to know that we want to attract and impress each other, and always have so if a man takes care of himself, looks good and smells nice I don't see how that is any less manly.

My boyfriend and I were also talking about it, he said "women’s lib has gone too far", naturally I nearly hit the roof! He chose his words unwisely it seems, and went on to explain that what he meant was men and women have become more homogeneous, men are less chivalrous women are more self sufficient and are doing all the things that they used to be excluded from and the defined characteristics of masculinity and femininity are ever changing and less separate and distinguishable than they were in times gone by. Which I think is very true.

On the subject of masculinity and what defines a man, I don't think masculinity or femininity can be defined on the basis of aesthetics or extrinsic values. I think Talbot said it very well;

QUOTE=Talbot]

I have to agree with Carlisle, manliness is not about misogyny. Not just because misogyny is wrong, but the frame of reference is external.

To me, manliness (and I suppose womenliness too) is an internal thing. Understanding who you are, your context and how you interact. Having your act together.

You could sip gasoline and smoke highway flares, or wear a tutu and makeup, that stuff's just not relevant.[/QUOTE]

 

[vintage68]

This thread has been a thorn in my side for days, days I tells ya!

Yeah, sorry about that. When one posts a thread it's like going down a rabbit hole, you never know where it'll end up.

 

[bettydarling]

Yeah, sorry about that. When one posts a thread it's like going down a rabbit hole, you never know where it'll end up.

Don't apologise! Its great! Its good conversation, makes for
great reading. I think its really interesting, as you can tell from my thesis above

 

[LaMedicine]

Yeah, sorry about that. When one posts a thread it's like going down a rabbit hole, you never know where it'll end up.

Not sure why you think this has gone down a rabbit hole. Since you are the OP, I suppose you mean you find the discussions not quite along the line you expected them to be, but then, would the world be an interesting place if all the opinions are the same? I find the ongoing discussion very revealing and interesting and informative, and orderly as well, which in itself is something, given the unruliness of some forums and the real world as well.
Incidentally, I agree with Talbot as well.

As for the *how to* books, they have been always been around for all times, every generation has a few representative books to their credit. The changing mores and values of society eventually seem to make those aimed at the particular generation eventually obsolete, even if they have advice based on good solid sense to help people be appreciative of each other, which is a pity, as the base line of what it takes to be a *man* or a *woman* has never changed, and probably never will. It's only the trimmings that have changed, are changing, and will continue to change.

 

[Martinis at 8]

...My boyfriend and I were also talking about it, he said "women’s lib has gone too far"...

He is correct! :eusa_clap

 

[Carlisle Blues]

One of the most difficult things I, as a man, will do is simply accept myself for all my attributes and limitations. To simply acknowledge that I have many qualities, and not to wish for those attributes that I feel I should have or unduly allow stereotypes to overly influence my self image, it is then that I can say that I am the man I aspire to be. As with all people we have wonderful attributes and not so great character flaws. Nevertheless, it is when I exercise my best efforts that I feel I am getting closer to that which is my definition of manhood.

When I am able to look at another and accept that person for who they are, without qualification, I know I have that quiet confidence, that equanimity that I seek each day.

Nothing and no one is perfect; accepting differences, no actually celebrating differences is what I strive for. Without which I can never call myself a friend, without which I can never call myself a man.

There has been no greater battle for me than to accept myself for who and what I am and that is simply a man. I strive for balance not perfection.

 

[bettydarling]

One of the most difficult things I, as a man, will do is simply accept myself for all my attributes and limitations. To simply acknowledge that I have many qualities, and not to wish for those attributes that I feel I should have or unduly allow stereotypes to overly influence my self image, it is then that I can say that I am the man I aspire to be. As with all people we have wonderful attributes and not so great character flaws. Nevertheless, it is when I exercise my best efforts that I feel I am getting closer to that which is my definition of manhood.

When I am able to look at another and accept that person for who they are, without qualification, I know I have that quiet confidence, that equanimity that I seek each day.

Nothing and no one is perfect; accepting differences, no actually celebrating differences is what I strive for. Without which I can never call myself a friend, without which I can never call myself a man.

There has been no greater battle for me than to accept myself for who and what I am and that is simply a man. I strive for balance not perfection.

Beautifully put Carlisle Blues, so eloquent.

 

[Fletch]

I can get with that! :eusa_clap

Now how do we drive a stake (better yet, a steak) thru this Great Truth that men are butt simple and women are endlessly complex?

Because until we do, sophistication belongs to women and primitivism belongs to men, and any male who even steps back and considers the situation is potentially suspect.

 

[Maguire]

to be fair much of what we consider "macho" or "manly" today would have been looked down upon in the age of chivalry and the like when the ideal was not a man who womanized or drank excessively etc, but a man who was completely disciplined, sober, and celibate (or as close to celibate as possible.) The macho image of hard drinking lady's man, even if he is a gentleman, would have been completely alien years ago. Infact it was thought of as effeminate as any ancient history or discourse will show. However there is no doubt anything is preferable to the way the the stereotype "joe six pack" of today- some couch potato who can only think in terms of sports scores, sex, and booze. Makes me want to crawl under a rock!

 

[High Pockets]

Thought I would pass along this book I came across. Excellent guide to the lost art, and belongs on the shelf of "our people."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...t_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

Last Spring I bought my first fedora and decided an afternoon of Googling hat trivia, rules of etiquette, etc,…..I found both the “Art of Manliness” website and The Fedora Lounge and have spent many hours enjoying the content of both.

I was going to order a copy of the book you mentioned but somehow along the line I forgot to do so.
So thank-you for the reminder Vintage68, I just added it to my Amazon Wish List as to not forget about it again.

I did take the time to read the pages of posts following the original one, and all I'll say is;
"Wow!"

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I can get with that! :eusa_clap

Great Truth that men are butt simple and women are endlessly complex?

Because until we do, sophistication belongs to women and primitivism belongs to men, and any male who even steps back and considers the situation is potentially suspect.

That “Great Truth” is a great fallacy. Everyone I have ever had the pleasure to have known male and female, whether it be through their posts on the FL or in person, is a multifaceted human being. To deny oneself that fact is to truly deny a person’s own humanity as far as I can see. With few exceptions, there is not one person that I have read here that has not enriched me or caused me pause in my own perspective. I may agree or I may disagree, nevertheless, I cannot deny that each person male and female are more than a one-dimensional entity. Sex does not determine sophistication the individual does whether they are male or female.

Further, sophistication is cultivated. It is a continuing process with no end. Therefore, each day, provided, I exercise my best efforts I will achieve greater depth; a deeper understanding of myself and those around me and become more "sophisticated" in that manner.

 

[bobalooba]

I will say I am happy to be a stay at home father, who cooks, cleans and faces my responsibilities. Naturally, my choice to stay home with my boy was predicated on the fact that I was fortunate to retire at a young age and am ready for expanding my life in many great ways. If I was susceptible to the influence of the aforementioned I can safely say that I would have a "WOMAN'" do the "womanly" chores and I would be dragging my knuckles on the ground and beating my chest at the appropriate times.

Carlisle I must say it always makes me happy when I hear about a father like you!

When I was six or seven my father began working the swingshift at his work so he could spend more time with me. He's the one who taught me how to fish, shave and shoot but he also taught me how to cook, clean and iron. He did this while working on a factory floor, he would come home with scrapes and bumps and various other small nicks, he would smell of smoke and gasoline but he would always read me a story and give me a hug goodnight.

I love hearing that other men do not feel poorly about doing "womanly things" and showing love, that is why we call them "loved ones" after all.

Anyway, I salute you and I hope your family appreciates what you do.

 

[bobalooba]

don’t has those their Truck-Nutz, it ain’t NO Truck!

Men….Grow some!

Nuf-said!

This is off topic but I feel it has to be said, pickups are great if you use them like pickups, most of the people I have seen with "truck-nutz" are people that keep their trucks immaculate and don't haul ****.

Besides...they're just in bad taste IMO

 

[Paisley]

I can get with that! :eusa_clap

Now how do we drive a stake (better yet, a steak) thru this Great Truth that men are butt simple and women are endlessly complex?

Because until we do, sophistication belongs to women and primitivism belongs to men, and any male who even steps back and considers the situation is potentially suspect.

Potentially suspect to whom? Somebody who is "butt simple"?

 

[Foofoogal]

this thread is really bothering me again.
Men throughout history have been good and bad as well as women.
Different men abound. I like to think this is the ideal though that Maguire speaks of.
It is not a modern thing to me that men loved their children or spouses.
To somehow dismiss the men that came before as boobs MIA is an affront to them. They did what they needed to do to provide.
Same as with women that kept the home fires burning. They were not always doormats.
The link I put before speaks of how with TV and such there is a real bashing of men.
Like Maguire I want to crawl under a rock also. Pitiful.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/116889/why_women_love_the_alpha_male.html?cat=41
interesting read.
I don't think we can dismiss personal experiences of everyone on this thread. I think we are speaking of what we know as men including me.
All I know is I will be married 35 years in August. Proof is in the pudding and I have a good one. I had 8 brothers and believe me if I didn't have a good one I would be so gone by now.
It takes 2 to make a marriage and I do feel sorry for those who get the short end of the stick. Maybe knowing from this thread what is important or from that book of what kind of man one really wants will narrow it down or what kind of man you want to be or your son to be.

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm
homework maybe...

 

[reetpleat]

to be fair much of what we consider "macho" or "manly" today would have been looked down upon in the age of chivalry and the like when the ideal was not a man who womanized or drank excessively etc, but a man who was completely disciplined, sober, and celibate (or as close to celibate as possible.) The macho image of hard drinking lady's man, even if he is a gentleman, would have been completely alien years ago. Infact it was thought of as effeminate as any ancient history or discourse will show. However there is no doubt anything is preferable to the way the the stereotype "joe six pack" of today- some couch potato who can only think in terms of sports scores, sex, and booze. Makes me want to crawl under a rock!

Interesting observation. No sure if I would agree completely in that, what I would have said is that the difference back then is that manliness was very much about emotional range and intellectual thought. As in, writing poetry, romanticism, romantic chivalry and of course, intellectual discourse.

None of these are eaxtly manly in the eyes of many modern american men. of course, latin culture is interesting to me in thta there certainly is a macho sense, but it is not unusual for a Mexican man to recite 16th century poetry or sing a romantic or sorrowful ballad.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

this thread is really bothering me again.
Men throughout history have been good and bad as well as women.
Different men abound. I like to think this is the ideal though that Maguire speaks of.
It is not a modern thing to me that men loved their children or spouses.
To somehow dismiss the men that came before as boobs MIA is an affront to them. They did what they needed to do to provide.
Same as with women that kept the home fires burning. They were not always doormats.
The link I put before speaks of how with TV and such there is a real bashing of men.
Like Maguire I want to crawl under a rock also. Pitiful.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/116889/why_women_love_the_alpha_male.html?cat=41
interesting read.
I don't think we can dismiss personal experiences of everyone on this thread. I think we are speaking of what we know as men including me.
All I know is I will be married 35 years in August. Proof is in the pudding and I have a good one. I had 8 brothers and believe me if I didn't have a good one I would be so gone by now.
It takes 2 to make a marriage and I do feel sorry for those who get the short end of the stick. Maybe knowing from this thread what is important or from that book of what kind of man one really wants will narrow it down or what kind of man you want to be or your son to be.

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm
homework maybe...

Our perspectives are derived from our experiences and are wholly subjective. Therefore what is acceptable to one may not be acceptable to another. Why condemn it? No one that I respect has ever come from a cookie cutter existence. These people have experiences, triumphs and tragedies, successes and failures. People are just people, to castigate a person because they do not fit into our version of what a particular sex should be or act like is tantamount to the most of prejudicial of behavior; very myopic at best.

 

[reetpleat]

That “Great Truth” is a great fallacy. Everyone I have ever had the pleasure to have known male and female, whether it be through their posts on the FL or in person, is a multifaceted human being. To deny oneself that fact is to truly deny a person’s own humanity as far as I can see. With few exceptions, there is not one person that I have read here that has not enriched me or caused me pause in my own perspective. I may agree or I may disagree, nevertheless, I cannot deny that each person male and female are more than a one-dimensional entity. Sex does not determine sophistication the individual does whether they are male or female.

Further, sophistication is cultivated. It is a continuing process with no end. Therefore, each day, provided, I exercise my best efforts I will achieve greater depth; a deeper understanding of myself and those around me and become more "sophisticated" in that manner.

Yes, but I do consider it a fairly manly or masculine trait to be able to turn off the emotions, complicated thought, etc, and think simply and do what needs to be done. Then get back to being more well rounded. But that is a necessary trait that men must know.

As for those who think women's lib has gone too far, no offense to anyone. We all are entitled to our opinion. But i can't imagine thinking, at it's root, the concept of women being liberated from our societal restrictions being abad thing. Of course, women's lib means many different things to many different people.

I would put forth that any man who likes to know his place and her place, and keep traditional roles, will of course, feel thta women's lib has gone too far.

But, mainly because their progress leaves men behind unless they are willing to liberate themselves in the same way. (no I don't think women's lib is about liberation from men's oppression, i think it is about liberation from societal oppression, and men need the same thing)

there is a new time coming when we are all free to fully be and express ourselves. But men's liberation is probably another ten to fifteen years away.

When that happens, men will no longer have to resent women's new place, and men will no longer find women somehow unappealing as they express their new selves.

Just my two cents.