The Lost Art of Manliness

[Edward]

I will say I am happy to be a stay at home father, who cooks, cleans and faces my responsibilities. Naturally, my choice to stay home with my boy was predicated on the fact that I was fortunate to retire at a young age and am ready for expanding my life in many great ways. If I was susceptible to the influence of the aforementioned I can safely say that I would have a "WOMAN'" do the "womanly" chores and I would be dragging my knuckles on the ground and beating my chest at the appropriate times.

I too am instantly suspicious of anything which tends to paint things in stark black and white, "this is what men do, and this is what women do". A lot of that sort of stuff that I have encountered is, frankly, misogynist to the core. The argument that 'men have no clear idea of their place in this new world' I remain suspicious of... well, not so much that there is confusion of male identity (there often is), but the notion that there is some sort of standard type of masculinity to which we all must adhere, and the frequent associated assumption that the problem is feminism, or at least that the world has changed, and not that men have failed to change with it. I find myself especially instantly suspicious of anyone who tries to peddle the myth that in order to be "successful" with women, a man should never be friends with a a woman. That said, looking at what this book has to offer in its contents list on Amazon, it does seem that it also has much to offer. There is much in it - table manners, for instance - which apologists for knuckle-dragging, modern man would tend to mock as being feminine, or even (sadly all too often) "gay". It seems to me that while it may not be for all of us, such a tome certainly has some sort of alternative to offer those who would otherwise develop the notion that being a man means being some sort of sports-worshipping neanderthal that dismisses the remotest trace of hygiene, health awareness, treating women well (or at least as anything other than 'the enemy' - the only thing uglier than "The Rules" is the male equivalent) as somehow effeminate or undesirable for 'real men'. In that, I'm sure it has much to recommend it.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I too am instantly suspicious of anything which tends to paint things in stark black and white, "this is what men do, and this is what women do". A lot of that sort of stuff that I have encountered is, frankly, misogynist to the core. The argument that 'men have no clear idea of their place in this new world' I remain suspicious of... well, not so much that there is confusion of male identity (there often is), but the notion that there is some sort of standard type of masculinity to which we all must adhere, and the frequent associated assumption that the problem is feminism, or at least that the world has changed, and not that men have failed to change with it. I find myself especially instantly suspicious of anyone who tries to peddle the myth that in order to be "successful" with women, a man should never be friends with a a woman.

I met a woman once a very, very beautiful woman inside and out. I am sure till this day she does not know what to make of the type of man who is nurturing, attentive, brave, self sufficient and asked nothing but her hand. This clearly explodes the stereotype espoused in "The Art of Man".

I think society has a need to pigeonhole people and if a person does not fit they are cast in a negative light; unless they have the back bone to stand tall and be who they are, no matter what the norm appears to be.

 

[Geesie]

Where people here would argue that a book....teaching people things like manners and comportment of ANY sort.....

is bad and not an improvement over the -clueless- behavior you all seem to rail and rant against in every other thread here.



Wow....speechless.

Because he didn't write "the art of manners" or "the art of civil behavior". He wrote "The Art of Manliness" which is altogether more subjective and loaded with cultural baggage.

Essentially, who the hell is he to decide what is "manly"? You're not a man unless you're polite in the following ways? How many sports must a man play or watch?
I can take my car apart into little pieces and put it back together, I like my whiskey straight, and I joined the Navy. How is my manliness compared to someone who hunts, plays football, and joined the Army? Am I lacking in the art of manliness because I don't do those things?

Carlisle Blues has already addressed the misogynistic undercurrent that runs through the site. I don't think there's much better evidence than who the readers voted "2008 Man of the Year" - a man who believes that there is a good argument for women to not vote, since the man is the head of the household and political differences can hurt a household and his reputation. So, one household, one vote - cast by the man and not to be contradicted by his submissive family.

No, this is not official blog material but as they say, you are known by the company you keep and "The Art of Manliness" is attracting a heavy proportion of misogynists.

 

[Paisley]

If the winner's views about politics and feminism weren't mentioned on the site, that suggests that those views wouldn't have gone down well with readers. I doubt that readers researched every candidate just to vote in a contest for Old Spice products.

I didn't read every post on the web site, but 90% of what I read could be applied to both men and women: how to run a meeting, how to help back acne (women get it, too), outdoor recreation, etc. I don't see what the fuss is about.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

If the winner's views about politics and feminism weren't mentioned on the site, that suggests that those views wouldn't have gone down well with readers. I doubt that readers researched every candidate just to vote in a contest for Old Spice products.

I didn't read every post on the web site, but 90% of what I read could be applied to both men and women: how to run a meeting, how to help back acne (women get it, too), outdoor recreation, etc. I don't see what the fuss is about.

Here is an example of how "The Art of Man" run a man to the ground:"Men are no longer needed. For the past 40 years, the role of men in Western society has diminished immensely. Before men were seen as providers and protectors. It seems the only thing men are good for is providing sperm for species propagation. But even that’s been taken away from them. Knowing their irrelevancy, many men are reporting feeling lost, depressed, and undervalued."

This guy wants to brainwash his target audience in an effort to have them become reliant upon his word and purchase materials as they become availavle. Vintage business model=repeat customers.

 

[GallatinHatMan]

With respect, Carlise, there are many young men who are literally adrift in our modern society. I find it hard to believe that to suggest that is misogynist. I'm in my 50's. I grew up when the rules for gentlemanly behavior were changing. When some women expected doors to be opened for them as a show of gentlemanly behavior while others objected and suggested it "demeaned" them. I must admit that at times I was confused as to what was expected. I just saw this site and the book in this thread and have only casually perused them, but I found little information there that I consider brainwashing. Anything, and I mean anything, that encourages us to be a more civil and courteous society must be a good thing. We are certainly frequently bombarded with ample influences that encourage descending to the lowest common denominator. There is nothing about being a man and espousing manly virtues that denigrates women.

 

[vintage68]

Okay Loungers, let's all take a deep breath and go to our happy place. Repeat after me: "I'm a stallion (or a mare) in a meadow...."

I'm surprised at the reaction my post has received. Never underestimate the power of the written word! It is, after all, just a book. Well okay, a book and a website.

Men (and women) are free to peruse the contents and decide for themselves if the advice and observations are true and applicable to their lives. If it is, great, absorb it and move on. If not, then put the book back on the shelf and move on, or click to another website. No harm, no foul.

Just the reaction this post is getting speaks volumes about the state of gender roles in modern society. I posted it because the book and the advice it offers has a certain "vintage" feel to. That's all.

I would add however that I agree with the book's product description overall:

"Generation X and Y is a generation of Lost Boys. We live in a Never-Never-Land where boys stay boys and never become men. More and more males today are putting off college, family, and adult responsibilities in order to play video games and do keg stands. The Art of Manliness is dedicated to helping men uncover what manliness means in the 21st century. What skills and knowledge should a 21st century man acquire? What traits should they develop? This book will have the answers."

Everything is NOT relevant.

 

[Dulouz]

I don't think that Brett claims that his views are the only way to be manly. I also don't think that the sight promotes a "knuckle-dragging" style of manliness. Everything that I have read encourages men to be well rounded. Tough and rugged, yet polite and considerate.

 

[Dulouz]

Thanks for the perspective Dulouz, and welcome to the Fedora Lounge!

Thanks! It seems like a great place. I've really been enjoying the forums.

 

[scotrace]

I've always enjoyed the site and the emails. There's a whole thread on TAOM around here someplace. A lot of common sense, but a fair amount of knowledge of "man" things that has gotten lost in the shuffle, and some advice on everyday things as well. How to gracefully leave a party. How to mow a lawn. How to shine your shoes.

Along with how to deal with tipping, first date etiquette. You know. Things female members often complain about men not knowing.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

With respect, Carlise, there are many young men who are literally adrift in our modern society. I find it hard to believe that to suggest that is misogynist. I'm in my 50's. I grew up when the rules for gentlemanly behavior were changing. When some women expected doors to be opened for them as a show of gentlemanly behavior while others objected and suggested it "demeaned" them. I must admit that at times I was confused as to what was expected. I just saw this site and the book in this thread and have only casually perused them, but I found little information there that I consider brainwashing. Anything, and I mean anything, that encourages us to be a more civil and courteous society must be a good thing. We are certainly frequently bombarded with ample influences that encourage descending to the lowest common denominator. There is nothing about being a man and espousing manly virtues that denigrates women.

I am not addressing manners I am speaking to views towards woman and how those views are foisted upon the reader, in some cases vulnerable, impressionable readers. That has been the theme throughout my posts here.

 

[vintage68]

For those who haven't yet purchased the book, in the back there is a list for the different meanings of flowers which is worth the price of the book alone.

Somehow my (now ex) girlfriend knew immediately something was up when I started buying the appropriate flowers for the occasion, usually when I messed up!

 

[Dulouz]

I am not addressing manners I am speaking to views towards woman and how those views are foisted upon the reader, in some cases vulnerable, impressionable readers. That has been the theme throughout my posts here.

I believe you have been very clear so far that it is not the "how to's" and the like that you are opposed to. However I have not seen the misogynist theme that you see. Perhaps it comes down to interpretation.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I believe you have been very clear so far that it is not the "how to's" and the like that you are opposed to. However I have not seen the misogynist theme that you see. Perhaps it comes down to interpretation.

Precisely what is abhorrent to one is acceptable to another. I have posted example after example. The meaning is in the mind of the beholder....[huh]

I do see value in "The Art of Manliness", but, that value is diminished due to the negative leanings towards woman.

 

[Foofoogal]

lol :eusa_clap
wow, I just found this thread.
Old fashion men and women may be dinosaurs soon. Someone has to teach them. lol

got this book a few years back for our son for Christmas. Not that his dad didn't teach him lots of things manly. (he is also Order of the Arrow and honey was asst. scout master. believe me when I say lots of young men have no teachers to show them how to be a man. Honey has taught some to even hold a hammer as they had never anyone show them. To me this is pitiful Same with women not having a clue how to cook anything. )
In all due respect Carlisle. You state you get around horses alot. Stallions are just different than mares.
Roosters are different than hens. etc.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

In all due respect Carlisle. You state you get around horses alot. Stallions are just different than mares.
Roosters are different than hens. etc.

I understand............but what do you mean??

 

[Foofoogal]

Just that by nature they are very different. It causes confusion when clear roles are not there.
Even in a business clarity is key. Who does what. Who is responsible for what.
I do appreciate your effort to speak your mind on this issue and truthfully think it has alot to do with you now having a son. What will you teach him?
I have at least 30 nephews and so feel I can speak with some knowledge on the subject as well.
I can promise you I can see the ones who had Dads teach them or substitute men role models. It just does not come naturally.
Even in the animal world. Now we are not animals but if you take a cat or dog away from a mother for instance early they flat do not make good mothers later on.
Now Stallions now are not necessarily mated the same way as generations past but the destinction is definitely there.
I just believe after living as long as I have we have natural ways or instincts. Like a cat likes to scratch a tree naturally. If they do not have a tree they will use a sofa. Men naturally have an instinct to build, hunt, (ex:focusing) most men focus on one thing well. This is instinct to hunt.
Little boys will take play cars and revved them up, wrestle etc. Instincts.
I have personally been very concerned and believe this is alot of why you have such violence today. Since alot of little boys have no outlet to wrestle and such this gets built up in them.
Women like to nurture generally and nest. Salmon swim upstream. etc.
I know I am all over the place but expecting company so hurrying.
Just meaning to hammer for a man gets alot of angst out of them and so what is the harm? Go hammer something. Go build something. Mow the lawn.
Young men are crawling into video games because they do not know where to start or how. Even if they want to they do not know how to run a saw. Very sad to me.

 

[HadleyH]

For those who haven't yet purchased the book, in the back there is a list for the different meanings of flowers which is worth the price of the book alone.

Somehow my (now ex) girlfriend knew immediately something was up when I started buying the appropriate flowers for the occasion, usually when I messed up!

Different meaning of flowers? ......

What does flower appreciation have to do with manliness as being discussed?

This symptom rather suggests that of a S.N.A.G *yucky* (sensititve new age guy).

Surely a S.N.A.G and the type of man now discussed are two very different things.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Different meaning of flowers? ......

What does flower appreciation have to do with manliness as being discussed?

This symptom rather suggests that of a S.N.A.G *yucky* (sensititve new age guy).

Surely a S.N.A.G and the type of man now discussed are two very different things.

The meaning of flowers is not new age.

The language of flowers, sometimes called floriography, was a Victorian-era means of communication in which various flowers and floral arrangements were used to send coded messages, allowing individuals to express feelings which otherwise could not be spoken. This language was most commonly communicated through Tussie-Mussies, an art which has a following today.

The nuances of the language are now mostly forgotten, but red roses still imply passionate, romantic love and pink roses a lesser affection; white roses suggest virtue and chastity and yellow roses still stand for friendship or devotion. Also commonly known meanings are sunflowers, which can indicate either haughtiness or respect – they were the favorite flower of St. Julie Billiart for this reason. Gerbera (daisy) means innocence or purity. The iris, being named for the messenger of the gods in Greek mythology, still represents the sending of a message. A pansy signifies thought, a daffodil regard, and a strand of ivy; fidelity.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_flowers

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Just that by nature they are very different. It causes confusion when clear roles are not there.
Even in a business clarity is key. Who does what. Who is responsible for what.
I do appreciate your effort to speak your mind on this issue and truthfully think it has alot to do with you now having a son. What will you teach him?
I have at least 30 nephews and so feel I can speak with some knowledge on the subject as well.
I can promise you I can see the ones who had Dads teach them or substitute men role models. It just does not come naturally.
Even in the animal world. Now we are not animals but if you take a cat or dog away from a mother for instance early they flat do not make good mothers later on.
Now Stallions now are not necessarily mated the same way as generations past but the destinction is definitely there.
I just believe after living as long as I have we have natural ways or instincts. Like a cat likes to scratch a tree naturally. If they do not have a tree they will use a sofa. Men naturally have an instinct to build, hunt, (ex:focusing) most men focus on one thing well. This is instinct to hunt.
Little boys will take play cars and revved them up, wrestle etc. Instincts.
I have personally been very concerned and believe this is alot of why you have such violence today. Since alot of little boys have no outlet to wrestle and such this gets built up in them.
Women like to nurture generally and nest. Salmon swim upstream. etc.

While I appreciate your sentiment, your statement is very subjective and therefore narrow.

Of course the difference between the sexes will always be constant, but, there are more similarities. For example, instincts were given to both sexes. One is not more prevalent because of the sex. Also, our experiences mold who we are in some instances a person will become a nurturer is they are left bereft of that in their lives. Sometimes what we yearn we seek to be . In other cases necessity is the mother of invention. I was compelled to do that which I previously stated now it is part of who I am. It has been there from birth. I am not a good candidate for the "The Art of Man"

I am not obviating the fact that men and woman are different what I am saying is that "The Art of Man" is die casting both sexes and attempting to mold men into a singular image. In my experience that will not work successfully in the long run.