The Great MacArthur Debate/Discussion

[52Styleline]

I just checked, and I found two sources which said that MacArthur was given a direct order by President Roosevelt to leave the Philippines. Roosevelt personally ordered that the Navy provide PT boats for the mission.

While I was in the Navy, I had an opportunity to visit Corrigidor and walk through the tunnels the Army used. There was still a lot of rusty armament laying all over the place at that time (mid 1960's) We were told that the tunnels were full of wounded Americans during the battle.

 

[Martinis at 8]

I just checked, and I found two sources which said that MacArthur was given a direct order by President Roosevelt to leave the Philippines. Roosevelt personally ordered that the Navy provide PT boats for the mission...

And your point is?

 

[52Styleline]

I don't know that I am trying to make any sort of point. In an earlier post, when MacArthur's departure from the PI was being discussed, I said I thought I remembered that he had been given a direct order..I was simply confirming it. Sorry if that historical fact offended you.

 

[Martinis at 8]

I don't know that I am trying to make any sort of point. In an earlier post, when MacArthur's departure from the PI was being discussed, I said I thought I remembered that he had been given a direct order..I was simply confirming it. Sorry if that historical fact offended you.

Offended? Not at all.

Do you believe it to be a "fact", or do you believe it to be orchestrated politics of the time? In other words the order being given as a cover.

He could have refused the order as did others like Volckmann and Fertig. I mean we do know that Mac had a propensity to do as he saw fit. Right?

M8

 

[plain old dave]

I'll say this much:

"Tears as big as buckshot and as evenly spaced as soldiers on parade. Never said a blessed word about the Corps."

BGEN L. B. Puller, USMC, on Macarthur's lack of appreciation of the role of the Marines in the Choisin Breakout in a speech given in Korea.

Macarthur never realized what side of the bread his butter was on, or maybe Pershing's anti-Marine prejudice rubbed off on him....

 

[52Styleline]

Offended? Not at all.

Do you believe it to be a "fact", or do you believe it to be orchestrated politics of the time? In other words the order being given as a cover.

He could have refused the order as did others like Volckmann and Fertig. I mean we do know that Mac had a propensity to do as he saw fit. Right?

M8

Do I believe it a fact that Roosevelt gave him a direct order? Yes, and as a former Naval Officer myself I believe any officer, even MacArthur, would obey a direct order of that type from the Cdr. in Chief. The fact that obeying would also save his hide is a part of the story I was intentionally staying out of.

Now obviously, I don't care about this issue as much as you do. Frankly how you feel about the General makes absolutely no difference to me and I am not interested in participating in any sort of kerfuffle about it. So I will bow out of this thread and let those of you to whom General Mac is a hot issue have at it.

 

[dhermann1]

In the real world of WWII generals were not something to throw away. When the Brits evacuated Dunkirk, they got their commander (I think it was Dill???) out early. The idea of the commander going down with his troops faded out about the time of Richard the Lionhearted, maybe even before, like Alexander the Great. It's one of many reasons the Japanese lost the war.

 

[Martinis at 8]

Do I believe it a fact that Roosevelt gave him a direct order? Yes, and as a former Naval Officer myself I believe any officer, even MacArthur, would obey a direct order of that type from the Cdr. in Chief. The fact that obeying would also save his hide is a part of the story I was intentionally staying out of.

Now obviously, I don't care about this issue as much as you do. Frankly how you feel about the General makes absolutely no difference to me and I am not interested in participating in any sort of kerfuffle about it. So I will bow out of this thread and let those of you to whom General Mac is a hot issue have at it.

Well thanks for the drive-by

 

[Diamondback]

Well thanks for the drive-by

Quite. While I agree with the data, the delivery was outside the spirit I intended for this thread.

By way of background, since many have weighed in, I've been working a theory that much of MacArthur's public persona may have been intended to hide a very shy, insecure man beneath, one with a particular form of extremely-high-functioning autism whose highest-profile illustration is Bill Gates of Microsoft. My goal is not to excuse his flaws or misjudgments, only to understand the reasoning that led to them, and from there learn from his mistakes.

The reason I admire him primarily is that I believe he was trying to do the right thing as he saw it to the best of his ability, regardless of personal price. That and the fact that the one time he went against that, he then pulled out all the stops to redeem both his own honor and his country's in the eyes of the Philippines, who we had made and then broken a commitment to.

As noted, though, I'm trying to keep from weighing in too much because of the depth and strength of my own opinions, and keep an open mind to the points y'all've made as you see them. (Our perceptions are the only tool we have to understand our reality, after all, and they all differ between individuals...)

 

[Parallel Guy]

Interesting. I think insecurity is often hidden by adamant certainty. The most confident men seem to be able to be challenged without feeling threatened. And I always sort of felt that Mac was trying to live up to his father's rep and even having surpassed it he never felt himself up to snuff.

 

[Diamondback]

Interesting. I think insecurity is often hidden by adamant certainty. The most confident men seem to be able to be challenged without feeling threatened. And I always sort of felt that Mac was trying to live up to his father's rep and even having surpassed it he never felt himself up to snuff.

Bingo, PG. I think that's part of his issue, always needing to "measure up" to a teenaged Colonel of Wisconsin volunteers leading the charge up Missionary Ridge... It is a well-documented fact that when anyone suggested he had exceeded General Dad, he was known to fly off the handle... late in life, he had admitted to Joseph Choate (Choate: Douglas MacArthur As I Knew Him) that the only reason he wanted to join the Army was to try to measure up to his father, and reading his own Reminiscences tells a story of a man, much like Hughes, who spent a majority of his life with a seriously pain-filled heart and met his end an embittered recluse.

The possibility that his mother also seemed to spend the bulk of their time together driving him ever harder and withholding approval seems to have had something to do with it too, IMO.

 

[bobalooba]

It has been a long time since this thread ended, tempers may have cooled and I think people who were interested should take it up again, even the more confrontational people, I think this could be a fairly interesting discussion to keep going for a while.

Who's with me?

 

[filfoster]

Big Mac, with extra sauce

Machester's book says Roosevelt/Marshall ordered him to leave Corregidor. If he stayed, wouldn't he have been disobeying a direct order from the chain of command? There is the heroic appeal of going down with his ship but saving him seems to have had two significant benefits: It deprived the Japanese of one of the war's biggest 'trophies'; It also preserved a vain, neurotic and arguably brilliant strategist for the eventual victory in the Pacific.

Politics? Of course. He was a distant cousin of Roosevelt's and Manchester's book (and Joseph Alsop's book on his cousin FDR) confirm Roosevelt considered him a rival and a 'dangerous' man. The MOH was certainly a political sop.

Re Korea: Mac may or may not have been right, but the civilian/political control has to prevail. There is no compelling argument against that, much as we might like it.

 

[Steve W.]

much more than the Phillipines

On this I agree 100%. This leads up to a theory I have on him and several other "non-warrior" generals.



What strategic vision was that? Knowledge of Asia? He had knowledge of the Phillipines - having lived there as an elite Army brat.

M8

MacArthur must be credited with a great knowledge of Asia. As a young officer, he accompanied his father on a vast tour of Asia, including China.In Manila, he had Vases that had been given to his father by the emperor of Japan, which he visited as a young officer. This elite army brat built bridges and canals because his officers saw him as an elite army brat. But he did his duty. Steve W.

Sorry so long in replying. I've been out of action for a long time,healthwise. Good to be back.

 

[dr greg]

Asia handy

I read also that he chose Inchon for the landings because he knew the area intimately, and that means the tides, weather etc for the time of year, because he had sailed all round that area in a yacht as a young man, so the idea that the Phillipines was all he knew about doesn't quite hold water.
He wasn't very popular here though, he had a low of opinion of us as a people and an army, and there are examples of him giving credit to US units for doing this or that in the New Guinea theatre, when actually the Aussies had done most of the heavy lifting.

 

[David Conwill]

Two thoughts for this somewhat aged thread:

1) Is it possible that his remorse over following the order to leave Corregidor drove General MacArthur to his eventual showdown with Truman? and

2) Has anyone yet staged a production of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar with Caesar wearing a Marshall-of-the-Philippines hat and smoking a corncob pipe?

-Dave

 

[Diamondback]

David:
1) It's possible, but there was also personal bad blood between the two men ever since WWI--and if I'm right, there was enough pain, guilt and anguish buried deep inside Mac's heart for several lifetimes.

2) I've long believed that if Shakespeare were alive today, he would look at MacArthur and say, "That's Julius Caesar as I wrote him, just in a new uniform."

 

[Troglodyte]

Wrong Play

Nah, the Bard would have saved that costuem for Coriolanus.

Trog

 

[cooncatbob]

I believe that the true great commander of the Pacific War was Admiral Nimitz not General MacArthur.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Thanks for starting this thread Diamondback!!!

My thoughts on this thread so far:

As to whether MacArthur ought of stayed in the Philippines or not, it is easy to view this issue through a modern lens. But it's important to remember that, at the time, it was not known that the treatment of American and Filipino POWS would be as harsh as it was. So, it's not really fare to to place a value judgment on a soldiers conduct based on whether he fought on, surrendered, or, as in Mac's case, obeyed a direct order from his Commander-in-Chief to evacuate. Under the circumstances, with the knowledge available, the decisions to fight on as a guerrilla, surrender with the hope of preventing further casualties among your command, or evacuating are all understandable. Furthermore, it bares pointing out that MacArthur's wife and four-year-old son were also on the specially dispatched Navy PT Boat . . . to fault a man for wanting to ensure his family's safe passage is pretty harsh.

For me, though, my opinion of MacArthur is mainly shaped by his conduct during the Bonus Marches. It is very well documented that in the operation to disperse the Bonus Army, MacArthur far exceeded his orders (in terms of how far fleeing marchers were pursed and which encampments were attacked) and also in terms of the amount of force used in doing so. President Hoover was very displeased with Mac's actions and I believe seriously considered having him dismissed from the Army.

Overall my impression of MacArthur has always been that he was rather egotistical, apt to believe that he always knew best, and quite the prima donna.