The general decline in standards today

[C-dot]

When I try to think of my role models as a child, they were certainly normal people with normal problems, but I can't imagine who my nephew and neice will look up to, seeing as "official" roles have changed quite dramatically even in the last 20 years. A child can't get too close to a teacher, or priest or camp counselor, etc., without fears of indecency. And worse, those fears may be well-founded. Am I on to something here?

I believe so. Sense of community isn't around anymore. How well do you know your neighbours? Would you be comfortable asking them for a favour, or doing one for them? You probably don't even know their last names.

I used to take the train to work every morning and night. Nobody talked, or even looked at each other. They're on their phones, working on their computers, or immersed in their iPods. People aren't approachable - It's a lot easier to strike up a conversation with someone reading a book than it is with someone angered by their email.

 

[LizzieMaine]

On the one hand we have people who view any adult who mentors kids with the harshest guilty-till-proven-innocent suspicions because of all the things we hear about nowadays, and on the other we have those who say"Oh, the world's not getting worse, it's just because we hear about more things nowadays." And the funny thing is, a lot of the time they're the same people. They know there's a problem, but they don't want to accept collective responsibility for dealing with it.

Getting back to the question of role models, mightn't some of the problem be the whole "too cool for school" attitude thing? When culture tells kids that being a swaggering rebel against all authority is the ultimate expression of self, what kind of role models will they have?

 

[sheeplady]

I believe so. Sense of community isn't around anymore. How well do you know your neighbours? Would you be comfortable asking them for a favour, or doing one for them? You probably don't even know their last names.

I think part of the problem is that we've lost our third spaces. Family and work are the first two, but the third was typically things like community groups (grange, etc.), religious groups, and other groups. You move people into suburbs and other places where there is no local community and there is no local government or local problems to get involved in because everybody is autonomous. Many people have left religious and other groups for a variety of reasons. People don't stay in the same place too long, and it is hard to make those lasting ties.

On top of that, many people have seen work dramatically take over more and more of their lives. I rarely work less than a 60 hour week (I probably work a 20+ hour week when I am on "vacation", because that is expected). That time has to come from someplace, and most people try not to take it away from their family, so the third space- community- get's the chopping block. Sometimes the first space-family- gets eaten into too.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I believe so. Sense of community isn't around anymore. How well do you know your neighbours? Would you be comfortable asking them for a favour, or doing one for them? You probably don't even know their last names.

Very true. Now I only know my next-door neighbor and two others. All three are longtime residents in my neighborhood. The rest I don't know.

 

[C-dot]

Getting back to the question of role models, mightn't some of the problem be the whole "too cool for school" attitude thing? When culture tells kids that being a swaggering rebel against all authority is the ultimate expression of self, what kind of role models will they have?

I've mulled this over many times, and I still don't have a definite answer. My best theory for the existence of this attitude is that, like many other ideas and concepts, the original meaning has been lost in time.

Take the original rebel: James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause. What made him a legend was how teenagers of the time could identify with him. They still do today, but for the wrong reason. The kids in the movie rebelled, but ultimately because they lacked, and fervently desired, a sense of belonging. Thats the key difference. Modern teenagers rebel against belonging, because they feel don't need it. They are "too cool for school."

People don't stay in the same place too long, and it is hard to make those lasting ties.

YES - That's what I couldn't put my finger on. It's so true, it hurts.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

You're absolutely right, I've never met my neighbors next-door on the left, and I hate the ones to the right (a tavern) and only know one of my neighbors across the street who are very nice people and regulars at our gun shop, downstairs.

My theory though, is to keep to to myself and they can keep to themselves. My old neighbor came over and complained once that I was using the paint-roller too loudly. That was it for me.

I believe so. Sense of community isn't around anymore. How well do you know your neighbours? Would you be comfortable asking them for a favour, or doing one for them? You probably don't even know their last names.

I used to take the train to work every morning and night. Nobody talked, or even looked at each other. They're on their phones, working on their computers, or immersed in their iPods. People aren't approachable - It's a lot easier to strike up a conversation with someone reading a book than it is with someone angered by their email.

 

[rue]

That makes me wonder...

I've been going back and forth over this thread trying to pin down what parts of the "decline" can be solidly identified.

Role models? Why does it seem like role models are harder to find?

I've been thinking on this....


My role models were my grandparents on both sides and they were part of the "golden era" that we love and although my mother is more like them then most of her generation, I feel that it's the baby boom generation that is preventing any sort of role model type behavior. For the most part they are not anything to look up to.... free love, drugs and rock and roll was their motto. I believe that generation as a whole has created a sense of leniency or entitlement to where we are supposed to be excepting of all no matter how good or bad anyone is and where there are no winners or losers... all you have to do is participate. No one can learn from that and no one needs a role model if everyone is a winner.


I think we're losing our role models, because they are a dying breed.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

My role models were my grandparents on both sides and they were part of the "golden era" that we love and although my mother is more like them then most of her generation, I feel that it's the baby boom generation that is preventing any sort of role model type behavior. For the most part they are not anything to look up to.... free love, drugs and rock and roll was their motto. I think we're losing our role models, because they are a dying breed.

Not to sound harsh but I think we might have to wait till the Baby Boomer generation becomes a dying breed before our society and culture is free of their noxious influence. Heck, I should talk -- I could be considered either a Baby Boomer or a Gen Xer (born in 1964).

 

[Flipped Lid]

It's not that there aren't potential role models out there. We're simply not allowed to have anything good and decent anymore. Anything or anyone that has the slightest hint of redeeming value sets the media off on a witch hunt to destroy it or them. My grandparents were my role models also. My grandfathers were born in 1908 and 1913. They were men of substance. Everytime I find myself in a tough situation, I ask myself what they would do. They've both been gone for a long time now, but I think about them almost every day. I'd give everything to spend five minutes with either one of them.

I've been thinking on this....


My role models were my grandparents on both sides and they were part of the "golden era" that we love and although my mother is more like them then most of her generation, I feel that it's the baby boom generation that is preventing any sort of role model type behavior. For the most part they are not anything to look up to.... free love, drugs and rock and roll was their motto. I think we're losing our role models, because they are a dying breed.

 

[rue]

Not to sound harsh but I think we might have to wait till the Baby Boomer generation becomes a dying breed before our society and culture is free of their noxious influence. Heck, I should talk. I could be considered both a Baby Boomer and a Gen Xer (born in 1964).

Born in 69 I know what you mean. I feel like I'm lost between the two myself and I don't understand either one.

It's not that there aren't potential role models out there. We're simply not allowed to have anything good and decent anymore. Anything or anyone that has the slightest hint of redeeming value sets the media off on a witch hunt to destroy it or them. My grandparents were my role models also. My grandfathers were born in 1908 and 1913. They were men of substance. Everytime I find myself in a tough situation, I ask myself what they would do. They've both been gone for a long time now, but I think about them almost every day. I'd give everything to spend five minutes with either one of them.

That's when both sides of my grandparents were born too and I ask myself the same question..... what would they do?

 

[Tomasso]

-- I could be considered either a Baby Boomer or a Gen Xer (born in 1964).

The United States Census Bureau considers a baby boomer to be someone born during the demographic birth boom between 1946 and 1964, including 1964............

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Boy, I feel ten feet tall now

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I don't consider myself a part of my generation. I was born in 1990 but have no reflection of it really. Everyone says I behave like I grew up in the 1950's, so I am always associated more with that era than my own, as many of you here can understand.

 

[rue]

Boy, I feel ten feet tall now

You shouldn't.... I meant as whole and not certain individuals that outshine their peers. God knows I don't want to be thrown in with the rest of MY generation

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I don't consider myself a part of my generation. I was born in 1990 but have no reflection of it really. Everyone says I behave like I grew up in the 1950's, so I am always associated more with that era than my own, as many of you here can understand.

Indeed I do understand. I know I don't look the part (yet - I'm working on it) but I've always believed that I was stuck somewhere in 1927.

 

[george]

The modern culture, drug culture, and lack of parenting, and powerless teachers are the big issues, if you ask me.

Modern culture in general is just lousy, everyone is looking out for number one, which is fine to a point, but not to the point of being completely self-centered. The media shows that it's okay to be "16 and pregnant" or to be defiant to your parents, to the police, or any other authority you can think of. Not to mention the way that sex, alcohol, and illegal drugs are glorified as necessities to any good party.

Drugs are an issue nation-wide. I know a lot of people that used to smoke marijuana and luckily realized that it was making them into lazy, do-nothings, with no future. I know a lot of others that didn't realize it and now they're grown-adults, living in their parents basements, hanging out with their other hop-head buddies like they're still 17. Well this ain't "Cheech and Chong" and this ain't "That 70's Show" and the summer of love is long over so go out and get a dang job. I won't even get started on the perils of the other, harder drugs.

Many parents don't care anymore. They're too busy with their own social lives and the adult dating world to take care of their children. These kids don't need to do schoolwork, because their parents want nothing more than for the kids to stay occupied in front of the TV so they can go out. They have no chores, no responsibilities, nothing of any importance to do because nobody cares WHAT they do.

Teachers don't know what to do with kids because with no discipline at home, a simple call to Mom and Dad won't do the trick. They can't discipline them without someone from the PC Police yelling and blowing horns and getting everything blown out of proportion on the National News.

If things continue on this road, it will not end well for the Greatest country in the World.

That's a great post and I can identify with a lot of what you're saying: my family have said the same things at one point or another!

I'll add an anecdote to the critique of modern culture. My mom's family came to America from Greece in 1961. A few years later my grandma and grandpa opened a pizzeria in a western MA town. They got to know a lot of folks in town through their business, they made a lot of friends. It wasn't like today where you go into a pizzeria (or you call one), order the pizza, and bring it home (or get it delivered), without anything more to it. When people came into the pizzeria it was a social thing. There would be conversations. People cared about each other and what they were doing. People were friendly and they liked to talk to each other.

My grandma still has that kind of character--that's what life was like in her days. I went for a haircut yesterday and brought grandma with me (I have been going to the same barber since I was little, so he's gotten to know my family over the years). As I'm there sitting getting my hair cut and talking to the barber, grandma just starts a conversation with another older lady who is sitting waiting. When my barber noticed, he said, "Your grandma will talk to anybody, I love her." And he's mainly right, grandma likes talking to people. That's how things were in her days, you could make friendly chat to strangers.

These days? Pick the wrong stranger, or even just look at the wrong stranger, and there's no telling what'll happen to you. People fear people they don't know. My barber never would have made the comment he made if it was still considered "normal" to make friendly chat with people you don't know well.

I guess I've inherited this behavior from my family, because I'm the type who will talk to a stranger even if we just happen to be walking the same path back to the same dorm at school or whatever else, but people today aren't always receptive to it. And it's funny, because a lot of today's youth and wannabe libertines are pretty serious about being "friends with everybody," but if you just give them a friendly hello they won't even always acknowledge it. I guess it's because they also have an idea about how a social interaction with a stranger is supposed to go--and those ideas tend to involve parties where they've taken so much drink or dope that they don't really know or care who they're talking to, so a stranger's just as good as anybody.

Says a lot about your social life when you can't just enjoy your friends for their own sake, but need drink or dope to make things "more fun." But that's how it is for a lot of my own generation, at least from what I've seen. It's rare to find someone who is not only social, but also genuine about it. People fear social interactions with "strangers" and can't carry on a friendly conversation, but will walk into a party full of people they don't know without a care in the world. And a person with real "social skills," if you could call them that (how hard is it to just make talk to someone?), are harder and harder to come by because of the direction the culture has moved, in my estimation, anyway.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I think talking to strangers is quite popular given the success of online forums like this one.

I talk to strangers online and off, but not if they offer me candy...

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I hear ya, there. Just recently, I was at the Chevy Dealership getting an alignment done. I'm a social guy, so I'm chit-chatting with everyone there. Nobody really wanted to talk to me except a couple people who know my old man and one other person. Everyone else just looked at me like I was some sort of deranged nut.

That's a great post and I can identify with a lot of what you're saying: my family have said the same things at one point or another!

I'll add an anecdote to the critique of modern culture. My mom's family came to America from Greece in 1961. A few years later my grandma and grandpa opened a pizzeria in a western MA town. They got to know a lot of folks in town through their business, they made a lot of friends. It wasn't like today where you go into a pizzeria (or you call one), order the pizza, and bring it home (or get it delivered), without anything more to it. When people came into the pizzeria it was a social thing. There would be conversations. People cared about each other and what they were doing. People were friendly and they liked to talk to each other.

My grandma still has that kind of character--that's what life was like in her days. I went for a haircut yesterday and brought grandma with me (I have been going to the same barber since I was little, so he's gotten to know my family over the years). As I'm there sitting getting my hair cut and talking to the barber, grandma just starts a conversation with another older lady who is sitting waiting. When my barber noticed, he said, "Your grandma will talk to anybody, I love her." And he's mainly right, grandma likes talking to people. That's how things were in her days, you could make friendly chat to strangers.

These days? Pick the wrong stranger, or even just look at the wrong stranger, and there's no telling what'll happen to you. People fear people they don't know. My barber never would have made the comment he made if it was still considered "normal" to make friendly chat with people you don't know well.

I guess I've inherited this behavior from my family, because I'm the type who will talk to a stranger even if we just happen to be walking the same path back to the same dorm at school or whatever else, but people today aren't always receptive to it. And it's funny, because a lot of today's youth and wannabe libertines are pretty serious about being "friends with everybody," but if you just give them a friendly hello they won't even always acknowledge it. I guess it's because they also have an idea about how a social interaction with a stranger is supposed to go--and those ideas tend to involve parties where they've taken so much drink or dope that they don't really know or care who they're talking to, so a stranger's just as good as anybody.

Says a lot about your social life when you can't just enjoy your friends for their own sake, but need drink or dope to make things "more fun." But that's how it is for a lot of my own generation, at least from what I've seen. It's rare to find someone who is not only social, but also genuine about it. People fear social interactions with "strangers" and can't carry on a friendly conversation, but will walk into a party full of people they don't know without a care in the world. And a person with real "social skills," if you could call them that (how hard is it to just make talk to someone?), are harder and harder to come by because of the direction the culture has moved, in my estimation, anyway.

 

[george]

I think talking to strangers is quite popular given the success of online forums like this one.

I talk to strangers online and off, but not if they offer me candy...

That's the thing. It's popular online, where people have this percieved anonymity... so, the internet has also contributed to this decline, I think. But like a lot of things, the internet has both good and bad qualities.

In person it's different, as Tom found out, hah. Like a deranged nut, huh? I think I can picture the look you got, probably because I've gotten it myself at some point!

Granted, there have always been dangerous strangers, but the culture or the general population weren't as obsessed with them as they are today. At least not around where my family was.

 

[AmateisGal]

Very true. Now I only know my next-door neighbor and two others. All three are longtime residents in my neighborhood. The rest I don't know.

We moved into a neighborhood where the people have been there for a very long time. Within the space of a week, we met three different families and all of them are very friendly. This is such a contrast to the last place we lived - we literally did not talk to any of our neighbors except for the elderly gentleman next door who was a huge grouch. lol

I really enjoy our new neighborhood - when you can pop over to someone's house and say "hello" or meet them in the backyard for a beer (as my husband does with our next door neighbor, an older gentleman), it just enriches the entire atmosphere of the neighborhood.