The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

So what about solutions? Years ago our society was taught etiquette and good citizenship. Yes, in school. In a best case scenario this was reinforced at home. Teach good citizenship, respect for one another AND for ourselves. I think if our schools did this k-12 it would have ‘some’ positive impact. (Hey, it worked on ‘To Sir with Love’). J

While everybody ought to have the sense enough to understand "please" and "thank you" and "people in service jobs are not your damn slaves" before they start school, I think formal etiquette of the Emily Post variety is the worst kind of pretentious middle-class twaddle -- seriously, of what real value to society is knowing the purpose of six different kinds of forks other than being a way of reinforcing the separation of the elites from the proles. All the hat-tipping and RSVPing and unctuous "gentlemanly" stuff in the world isn't going to make a self-absorbed jerk into less of a jerk -- it's like gluing a thin veneer onto a piece of soggy beaverboard.

All we really need along those lines is for people to understand that they aren't the only ones on the sidewalk, so quit taking up so much space. You aren't the only one who needs to park their car, so quit taking up two spaces. You aren't the only one on the bus, so get your bag of crap off the seat next to you and let someone else sit there. You aren't the only one in the theatre, so put your stupid cellphone away before I chuck you out. That's the only kind of etiquette we really need -- the kind that says "you're not the only person in the world so swiften up."

As far as respect for "authority figures" is concerned, I think there's a real difference between respect and obsequiousness. The kind of person who holds their hat in hand and looks at the floor and says "sir, yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am, whatever you say mister or missus boss sir" whenever the boss or the teacher or the coach or the minister or the parent speaks to them isn't a "gentleman" or a "lady" but a toady. A good citizen isn't a groveler. If you really want to respect authority figures, look them in the eye and be honest with them. The American people have always had a healthy sense of distrust for the sort of authority figures who "demand" that their underlings keep their place, and this goes way back in our history.

But I think civics *is* a very important thing to teach, and that teaching the individual about their duties and responsibilities as an adult member of society is necessary, both in the home and in the schools. The civics textbooks of the Era didn't just explain how voting worked, or what a city council does, but stressed the understanding that the main duty of citizenship isn't about securing what's best for the individual -- it's about working together to achieve what's best for the community as a whole, and that a community can never be any stronger than its weakest member.

I think a lot of kids today actually understand this. They might not yet understand how to go about achieving it in a productive way, but they do seem to at least understand the point. It's the grasping, social-climbing parents who need to be signed up for remedial classes.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

It is interesting that many agree about the decline of standards, but once someone offers a potential reason, we’re accused of whining or rounding up undesirables. Comments that imply that we’re on the verge of blaming homosexuals, blacks and whoever. Ignoring the heart of the issue and keying in on the word ‘hippie’. When asked for a possible solution, we only get ‘shovel your neighbor’s driveway’, as if that would solve the nation’s decline in standards. It’s a start, but you’d probably be the only one doing it because its too much like real work and things would go along as always. In fact, you just might get mugged while doing the good deed.



This is very unfortunate as I had hoped to have a serious discussion. Maybe that’s too much to ask though and we will only get more acrid comments.
Now, if we can get back to the issue:


The original post mentioned that standards have declined because these days both parents have to work so leaving kids unsupervised and allowed generally to roam around on their own sometimes unchecked.


Also that in schools the teachers have to spend more time doing reports, and less time teaching the kids and that now days there does not seem to be any way to keep order.


While this may be part of the problem, I suspect that a big part is that today you would most likely get sued if you tried to discipline a school kid. I like the idea of detention, but also corporal punishment. Try detention first. That would have broken me, I’ll tell you. But with some, that may not be enough. Almost immediately one member here took offense and said words to the effect that if someone paddled their kid they would (whatever). Never mind the fact that practically every public school in the country has a student handbook with rules that specify what is allowed, how students are to behave and the punishment that may occur. But then that guy sent his kids to private school.


The original also post lamented that perhaps a return to some of the old ways would not be a bad thing. I don’t disagree at all with this last point. Many of you seem to though. ‘Some’ of the ways we used to do things were a good idea. Ok, so maybe you think its too much or too insulting to tip your hat to a lady, or hold a door for her. Again, 1 person doing this would solve nothing.


So what about solutions? Years ago our society was taught etiquette and good citizenship. Yes, in school. In a best case scenario this was reinforced at home. Teach good citizenship, respect for one another AND for ourselves. I think if our schools did this k-12 it would have ‘some’ positive impact. (Hey, it worked on ‘To Sir with Love’). J


You see, although the Hollywood execs and college professors would continue to ridicule people with those ethics the whole time, eventually those people would move on, retire or whatever. Then the new crop of people would take their place and they would have this solid background in ethics to rely on. It wouldn’t change overnight, but it should change things.
　

Another very good post,Dennis..but enough to fire up those of a different mindset which has only added to the basic problems of hardcore disrespect...and getting away with it.
HD

 

[Bushman]

In regards to corporal punishment.... I never got paddled or caned by a teacher or any other authority figure, however my father did give the occasional whipping with a thick leather belt, and I think my bum is better for it now because of it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I do think it would have been a good thing if some authority figure had beaten the snot out of my father a few times. Not because it would have made him a better man or anything, I just think it would have been a good thing.

 

[Dennis Young]

Me too. And I should add that my dad definitely got my attention and I said ‘yes sir’ from then on. Lol! And my dad didn’t beat me either.


I think kids are basically good but are like un-molded clay in the beginning. By the time a kid gets to school, if he ‘hasn’t’ been taught good manners or respect, he cannot be expected to know it. He has to be taught it if he is to function in polite society, and we do them a disservice by ignoring that. And I don’t think the child’s school life has to be like something out of a Charles Dickens novel. Lol!


Imo, beginning in Kindergarten all the way through their Sr year in high school, a child could have classes in simple things like good citizenship. As they progressed and got a little older, they could progress on to ethics. There are already many programs along these lines to choose from and all a school would need to do is write for them. Their school board could get that for them.


It would not…turn American society into some type of utopia. But it would be a good start. The child would at least know how to function in polite society. And would know that others would expect to be treated with dignity. J

 

[jamespowers]

I do think it would have been a good thing if some authority figure had beaten the snot out of my father a few times. Not because it would have made him a better man or anything, I just think it would have been a good thing.

So we can count you as being for corporal punishment. lol lol lol

As I mentioned before, years go that would have happened.

 

[Dennis Young]

I do think it would have been a good thing if some authority figure had beaten the snot out of my father a few times. Not because it would have made him a better man or anything, I just think it would have been a good thing.

Its possible these days he would have wound up in jail. I don’t know of course, but DHR can act if they know.

 

[Dennis Young]

If there were "12 Steps To Being and Internet Troll", you'd be on Step 11.

I apologize if I’ve offended you, but truth is if you’d ever really met an internet troll, you’d know I’m not troll.

 

[jamespowers]

Me too. And I should add that my dad definitely got my attention and I said ‘yes sir’ from then on. Lol! And my dad didn’t beat me either.


I think kids are basically good but are like un-molded clay in the beginning. By the time a kid gets to school, if he ‘hasn’t’ been taught good manners or respect, he cannot be expected to know it. He has to be taught it if he is to function in polite society, and we do them a disservice by ignoring that. And I don’t think the child’s school life has to be like something out of a Charles Dickens novel. Lol!


Imo, beginning in Kindergarten all the way through their Sr year in high school, a child could have classes in simple things like good citizenship. As they progressed and got a little older, they could progress on to ethics. There are already many programs along these lines to choose from and all a school would need to do is write for them. Their school board could get that for them.


It would not…turn American society into some type of utopia. But it would be a good start. The child would at least know how to function in polite society. And would know that others would expect to be treated with dignity. J

Agreed and children should also be taught a financial management course---mandatorily. Things like balancing a checkbook, managing a budget and a rudimentary understanding of saving and investing would definitely have an effect on society as a whole.
Making them less able to be taken advantage of later in life is a good thing.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Its possible these days he would have wound up in jail. I don’t know of course, but DHR can act if they know.

Exactly. Fifty years ago, when he was in all his glory, a man like him could do whatever he pleased and, under the law, get away with it.

As far as corporal punishment goes, I have no problem with a parent giving their kid a slap or a whack when necessary, but I don't advocate beating them into the corner with a kitchen chair, as my mother did to me. And I absolutely don't favor outside "authority figures" administering any kind of physical punishment without due process of law. A child who grows up motivated by fear is going to grow up to be a fawning, cringing victim, or a bully. A society made up of such people would be much worse than what we have now.

 

[LizzieMaine]

So we can count you as being for corporal punishment. lol lol lol

As I mentioned before, years go that would have happened.

Well, it should have, but it didn't. He got away with every filthy thing he ever did. And that was fifty years ago.

 

[Harp]

I think Robespierre had the right idea. But you know those sans-culottes, with their baggy pants and their stupid caps.

Max learned that Madame La Guillotine was a jealous mistress-sartorial issues aside. Talk about a busted flush.:eeek:

 

[LizzieMaine]

children should also be taught a financial management course---mandatorily. Things like balancing a checkbook, managing a budget and a rudimentary understanding of saving and investing would definitely have an effect on society as a whole.
Making them less able to be taken advantage of later in life is a good thing.

Add to that a semester on understanding how the advertising and marketing rackets are used to manipulate the public, and you've got my support.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I apologize if I’ve offended you, but truth is if you’d ever really met an internet troll, you’d know I’m not troll.

It wasn't just me. And I'm not sure what reaction you expected. You started this with "I blame the hippie culture for nearly all the ills of society today", and when called on it responded with accusing people of "ignoring the heart of the issue and keying in on the word ‘hippie’". Then rather than admitting you may have used a little hyperbole in the first place, you pulled out your martyr card, insulted the intellgence of those who called you out, and tried to claim the intellectual high road. Sorry, you don't get it.

I think everyone agrees with your basic principle about civics and personal interaction, and it's not that we're too stupid or too brainwashed to think on your level, it's that you've framed it in the most offensive way possible.

 

[HudsonHawk]

As far as corporal punishment goes, I have no problem with a parent giving their kid a slap or a whack when necessary, but I don't advocate beating them into the corner with a kitchen chair, as my mother did to me. And I absolutely don't favor outside "authority figures" administering any kind of physical punishment without due process of law. A child who grows up motivated by fear is going to grow up to be a fawning, cringing victim, or a bully.

It is interesting to note that the only people you are allowed to legally hit are children.

 

[LuvMyMan]

I have three children, they were all raised the same within our household. Not one of them turned out to be the same, but all three have made their own choices on how to act and behave towards others. For me, life is what each of us decide to make of it, no matter what input is given.

True that having some positive role model and input can make a difference, but it still is up to each person to make their own choices in life. And if you "ponder" this, you will realize how your life has been, how you proceeded down your own "course" to be where you are today. Dignity, honor, integrity, having some sense of moral ethics...it all seems to be traits that as individuals we decided what to have and what to be.

I do tend to think as times have changed a bit it makes for a new set of rules to be applied. What anyone can do within today's chalenge is to simply make the choices of doing the best we can and not allow the
pepsi generation attitude to stick to how we are.

I cannot imagine having to deal with all the garbage that takes place in even going to school....you know you have to worry about "Little Johnie" bringing an Uzi to school in a book bag. The peer pressure is much more in my opinion then when even my own children attended school. Kids today killing themselves over what some smuck posted about them on Facebook! What in the world.....I don't have the anwsers for it all. I just know how I am, how my Husband is, and try to not allow the darker side of it all, make my life have any more problems then what I have already to deal with.

 

[jamespowers]

Well, it should have, but it didn't. He got away with every filthy thing he ever did. And that was fifty years ago.

They didn't live in my grandparent's neighborhood. He would have got his share of "punishment."

I can hardly believe how much has changed out here. Principal Lee would have gotten sued fifty million times by now. :doh:

 

[jamespowers]

As far as corporal punishment goes, I have no problem with a parent giving their kid a slap or a whack when necessary, but I don't advocate beating them into the corner with a kitchen chair, as my mother did to me. And I absolutely don't favor outside "authority figures" administering any kind of physical punishment without due process of law. A child who grows up motivated by fear is going to grow up to be a fawning, cringing victim, or a bully. A society made up of such people would be much worse than what we have now.

I am not quite sure that works as the WWII generation were overwhelmingly raised with corporal punishment---in the home, at school and with extended family. Yet they managed to staff a military with fawning, cringing victims and bullies. This was against some of the greatest military forces of all time too---and they won. :eeek:

 

[jamespowers]

It is interesting to note that the only people you are allowed to legally hit are children.

You forgot boxers, wrestlers and MMA.

 

[jamespowers]

Add to that a semester on understanding how the advertising and marketing rackets are used to manipulate the public, and you've got my support.

I figured that would be a part of the budgeting and investment section.