The general decline in standards today

[ChiTownScion]

I've long heard from tourists coming from other countries that they find American tourists to be.... loud and obnoxious - to say the least. When I hear stories like this, I can't say I blame them for having that viewpoint. I've often found Americans to be loud and obnoxious in America, can't even imagine the disruption on a beautiful Sunday morning in Paris when a family of Americans comes to the cafe.

Spent two delightful weeks in Paris in 2013, and it demolished every negative stereotype of the French and how they treat Americans. The problem is that the rules of engagement are quite simple, and some Americans don't want to play by rules. When you enter a shop, a simple "Bonjour, Madam" will go a long way. Respect the queue of other customers, and offer the same "s'il vous plait" and "merci" that you'd appreciate in English were someone to enter your store back in the US. And an "au revoir" or "bonsoir" o departing is appreciated as well.

So against all the stories I had heard regarding rude Parisians, I found the French folks there to be delightful, helpful, and gracious. Gypsies and North African street hustlers-- that's another story... but I actually found myself liking the French people. And a tour of the military museum at Les Invalides certainly dispelled any notion regarding ingratitude for US military help in the World Wars.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

They were truly morons----and they figured nothing was wrong with doing that-----just plain stupid. Where do idiots get enough money to travel that far?
Well at least we aren't alone. Russia, Canada, Australia and Brazil produced morons who did the same thing. It seems people from places that do not have a long history in a country have no respect for those that do or their relics and architecture. :doh:

I didn't see the porn story but NOW I do. :doh: The decline in standards is getting worse......

I think Russia is in a class of its own because I wouldn't exactly say that Russia has a short history.

[video=youtube;h3p-WZSHFU4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3p-WZSHFU4[/video]

 

[LizzieMaine]

For what it's worth even Hitler regarded Kuhn as a moron.

One of the things that's bound to strike anyone who takes a close look at the would-be Fascists of the thirties is what a bunch of complete knuckleheads most of them were. Kuhn was just plain dumb, William Dudley Pelley believed he got his political instructions direct from God, Gerald L. K. Smith was convinced that *he* gave *God* political instructions, Elizabeth Dilling was a wild-eyed paranoid who saw "Jew/Negro/Bolshevik" conspiracies under every bed, Joe McWilliams was a cheap street-corner thug, and Coughlin was a flamboyant narcissist who sold autographed pictures of himself from the pulpit of his church and never got over the fact that President Roosevelt didn't admire him as much as Coughlin admired himself. And not to forget Coughlin's lackey, Father Edward Lodge Curran, who was like a little yappy dog on a leash barking to impress his master. And of course, Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh, who proved every time he opened his mouth that as an analyst of the political situation he was a great aviator.

The only one of the home-grown Fascisti who wasn't a total embarassment was Lawrence Dennis, who was at least capable of putting together a coherent argument on "America's Town Meeting Of The Air" when he wanted to. Dennis, however, proved to be too intelligent for his crowd, and after being put on trial for sedition he repudiated his previous beliefs and went on to become a quiet, moderate Republican.

 

[jamespowers]

I think Russia is in a class of its own because I wouldn't exactly say that Russia has a short history.

[video=youtube;h3p-WZSHFU4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3p-WZSHFU4[/video]

I meant that they do not exactly have comparable monuments in their country as old as the Coliseum.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I've long heard from tourists coming from other countries that they find American tourists to be.... loud and obnoxious - to say the least. When I hear stories like this, I can't say I blame them for having that viewpoint. I've often found Americans to be loud and obnoxious in America, can't even imagine the disruption on a beautiful Sunday morning in Paris when a family of Americans comes to the cafe.

I can assure that American tourists are no worse than tourists from anywhere else, and they're far from the worst. In fact, they're generally not nearly as bad as tourists *coming* to America.

 

[pawineguy]

I can assure that American tourists are no worse than tourists from anywhere else, and they're far from the worst. In fact, they're generally not nearly as bad as tourists *coming* to America.

I was going to comment along these lines but you hit the nail on the head. While I have seen some bad American behavior during my European travels, and I do generally agree that the French people generally get a bad rap when it comes to hospitality, what I have witnessed in places like Washington D.C., at our various war memorial sites... let's just say that my wife swears I spent our entire last visit there pleading with foreign tourists to 1. lower their voices and be respectful 2. Stop climbing on statues for "cool" pictures with big smiles 3. stop making a game of throwing coins in over your head, clapping if they land someplace interesting in a fountain 4. move your entire tour group along before they end up raising the ire of people less patient than I.

I should also add, having stayed at a hotel in Athens right next to the Greek equivalent of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, the lack of respect displayed at that site by Greeks and other European visitors was absolutely shocking to me, so perhaps it's a cultural difference?

 

[Harp]

I should also add, having stayed at a hotel in Athens right next to the Greek equivalent of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, the lack of respect displayed at that site by Greeks and other European visitors was absolutely shocking to me, so perhaps it's a cultural difference?

I lived in Greece when the Colonels were in power and the November Group was the ace terror threat in Athens.
Greek paratroops staged a coup d'état the dawn after my arrival which was ended by Hellenic F-4 Phantoms, and my team nearly
missed a November Group car bombing outside a restaurant in Athens later that evening. Absolutely shocking.

Seriously though, there are some cultural differences of course, but on the whole the Greek people were very friendly.
I once visited the Tomb and the deserted former royal palace and noticed no unseemly behavior so perhaps such disrespect is
more the exception than the rule.

 

[DecoDame]

I’m not a fan of the hippie aesthetic or the often casual relationship to drug use that came in their wake in any way, but something that frightens me far more than the occasional whiff of patchouli or weed and the sound of some culturally appropriated prayer beads is enthusiastic de-humanizing and demonizing of a whole swath of people to satisfy the need for Someone To Blame. Scapegoating propaganda is scapegoating propaganda, no matter what corner or country or era it comes from.

This long ominous shadow of the Hippie may be a nice and tidy and satisfying Boogie Man of all ills, and can also serve as a extremely paper thin way to covertly bring politics into discussions (cite the corrosive influence of The Hippies and you haven’t actually said the word “liberal” so you get a pass?) – but it’s also cartoonish and one dimensional and too often equates appearance with motive and worth.

Some of these (apparently nefarious) extant Hippies are my friends, neighbors and clients. I’m surrounded by the most concentrated example of the species in this part of the country, I’m sure. I live in a notoriously liberal college town in Ohio, with a long history of social activism. Formed in the mid 1800s, Antioch became the first college in the country to admit both nonwhites and women with equal status to white men. Coretta Scott King attended here. And it has truly stopped the clock in the late 60s and most people here are pretty proud of that fact.

But it’s not just the depressing amount of tie-dye sold in town or countless Grateful Dead stickers on cars that’s survived, it’s not just the outer package; they’ve also managed to maintain the better aspects of the 60s movement all these years, which yes, I feel are noble instincts – the desire for peace, fairness, caring for each other and simplicity in way of life. Sure, maybe it was and still is naïve, and I have no idea if in the larger sense of things whether they had more positive impact than negative in the world, but these examples of the species certainly never sold out. Or opted out. Not everyone in that period drugged up and dropped out. Or later cynically and hypocritically went out to make big bucks and screw those supposed ideals. These people I know personally continue to try and help people both by chosen professions and vigorous volunteering, all these decades later, and in a hands-on way. They don’t just write checks occasionally and pat themselves on the back. They literally work to make peoples lives better. Most live in modest ways. And they fight for a true community here in a way I’ve not experienced anywhere else. They are not selfish, self serving do-nothing hedonists. The tone of the whole town is set by the college’s motto which is: "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." My partner and I feel safe here, cared about and supported. But they are undeniably are, and would personally identify, as “Hippies”. Would I rather they’d cut their hair and lose the charming Birkenstocks/socks combo? You betcha. But the trade off is well worth it. And far more important.

You can always, always find people to fulfill negative stereotypes in any group you want to. That never justifies the stereotype. I don’t know the people who routinely get sneered at around here, I don’t recognize them. If people are layabouts and worthless good for nothings, that’s what they are because of their choices and actions. Long hair and liking Janis Joplin means nothing more conclusive than a tolerance for loud noise and saved money from the barber’s.

If the pendulum swung too hard when those 60s kids rejected the stifling, hypocritical, biased aspects of the Era and too many worthwhile things were also rejected and abandoned along the way (and I concede that argument), that’s truly unfortunate and there are aspects for us to try to recapture. But treating many well meaning people as a literal cancer, and to “Other” and “Them” a whole generation of people? Well, it might make you feel better, but doesn’t actually change a damned thing to make life better for any of us now.

 

[sheeplady]

These people I know personally continue to try and help people both by chosen professions and vigorous volunteering, all these decades later, and in a hands-on way. They don’t just write checks occasionally and pat themselves on the back. They literally work to make peoples lives better. Most live in modest ways. And they fight for a true community here in a way I’ve not experienced anywhere else. They are not selfish, self serving do-nothing hedonists. The tone of the whole town is set by the college’s motto which is: "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."

I lived for many years in Ithaca, NY and I met many people like you describe.

When the hippies faced wealth being drained out of the community, they created their own currency, Ithaca Hours. When the hippies faced not having adequate healthcare and not enough money to buy into traditional health insurance, they gathered together and created their own healthcare pool. When the hippies found they didn't have stable childcare, they created a drop-in-childcare center.

But the thing is- these interventions didn't just help them- they help the ENTIRE community.

I think there's a time to stop whining about how bad things are and do something to change them. I have a lot more respect for people who better their communities- no matter how they dress or their politics- than those who sit back and whine how they can't do anything. We can't turn back the clock. There is no going back, only forward. Don't waste today when you can be taking real action to change things.

Your effort may only be a drop in the bucket, but it is better than sitting there and cursing at the bucket. Put enough drops together and you get a full bucket.

Also, I have to compliment the Antioch college motto. That is food for thought.

 

[ChiTownScion]

I think there's a time to stop whining about how bad things are and do something to change them. I have a lot more respect for people who better their communities- no matter how they dress or their politics- than those who sit back and whine how they can't do anything. We can't turn back the clock. There is no going back, only forward. Don't waste today when you can be taking real action to change things.

Your effort may only be a drop in the bucket, but it is better than sitting there and cursing at the bucket. Put enough drops together and you get a full bucket.

Well stated. Very well stated.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It doesn't even have to be anything *big.* Help your neighbor shovel her driveway, and be sure you don't throw your snow in hers. Look in on someone who has no one to look in on them. Give someone a ride who needs one, and don't dun them for gas money. Stop bitching about how everybody's getting something for nothing but you, and think instead about how you can help someone who has less than you. If everybody did that, whenever they saw the opportunity, without thinking about what's in it for them, this thread would be a whole lot shorter.

 

[ChiTownScion]

I’m not a fan of the hippie aesthetic or the often casual relationship to drug use that came in their wake in any way, but something that frightens me far more than the occasional whiff of patchouli or weed and the sound of some culturally appropriated prayer beads is enthusiastic de-humanizing and demonizing of a whole swath of people to satisfy the need for Someone To Blame. Scapegoating propaganda is scapegoating propaganda, no matter what corner or country or era it comes from.

This long ominous shadow of the Hippie may be a nice and tidy and satisfying Boogie Man of all ills, and can also serve as a extremely paper thin way to covertly bring politics into discussions (cite the corrosive influence of The Hippies and you haven’t actually said the word “liberal” so you get a pass?) – but it’s also cartoonish and one dimensional and too often equates appearance with motive and worth.

It's a hell of a lot easier to stereotype than it is to actually research specific wrongs and address them with viable remedies.

 

[Stearmen]

Of course, the men in the top positions, in government, business, and the Universities, during the Hippie days were all WWII veterans. Even one Timothy Francis Leary served in WWII!

 

[Dennis Young]

You can be a liberal, and not be a radical. You can have long hair, listen to Janis and not be a dirty hippie. That wasn’t the point.

 

[ChiTownScion]

Of course, the men in the top positions, in government, business, and the Universities, during the Hippie days were all WWII veterans. Even one Timothy Francis Leary served in WWII!

As were Gus Hall and Pete Seeger. Woody Guthrie served as well. Radical 60's lawyer William Kunsler rose to the rank of major (Army) in the Pacific Theater. Anti- establishment author Kurt Vonnegut obtained a battlefield commission and was later a prisoner of war. The 1972 Democratic candidate, George McGovern, was painted as a pinko by the Nixon administration- but had served 26 combat missions over occupied Europe as a B-24 Liberator pilot in the Eighth Air Force.

 

[Fading Fast]

It doesn't even have to be anything *big.* Help your neighbor shovel her driveway, and be sure you don't throw your snow in hers. Look in on someone who has no one to look in on them. Give someone a ride who needs one, and don't dun them for gas money. Stop bitching about how everybody's getting something for nothing but you, and think instead about how you can help someone who has less than you. If everybody did that, whenever they saw the opportunity, without thinking about what's in it for them, this thread would be a whole lot shorter.

Yes.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Of course, the men in the top positions, in government, business, and the Universities, during the Hippie days were all WWII veterans. Even one Timothy Francis Leary served in WWII!

As a wise man once said, the "Greatest Generation" got the children they deserved. As do we all.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You can be a liberal, and not be a radical. You can have long hair, listen to Janis and not be a dirty hippie. That wasn’t the point.

You can be a radical and not like Janis at all. You can be a radical and be militantly opposed to drugs and alcohol. You can be a radical and work hard for a living. You can be a radical and love your country.

 

[Edward]

ONe thing that makes me chuckle wryly about this place.... we're forever patting ourselves on the back about how wonderful we are, how civilised, how polite..... and how much better wed are than [insert post-1960 tribal grouping of choice] filth and scum, who get condemned in the strongest of (very typically political, despite House Rules) terms. :eusa_doh:

Regarding the comment made above about the behaviour of non-Aericans and war memorials.... I think in part these differences in expectation do come about as a direct result of significant cultural variation. In my experience, the US is fairly unique in that deference and respect for the military is automatic. Views in Europe tend to be more nuanced, I think; military men will be judged as individuals, rather than automatically respected for service. Different cultures, different attitudes. I do lean to the view that when one is a guest in another culture - whether the US, China or the moon - it does not behove one to behave in a way which is considered offensive when there is no need for the same, but equally it would be a mistake to confuse ignorance of cultural norms with wilful insult.

These were mostly Irish Catholic followers of Father Coughlin. You could walk thru Irish neighborhoods in Boston in 1940 and see Nazi flags openly flown to show support for Hitler's war against Britain.

Not one of our brighter spots as a nation. I console myself with the fact that it would, arguably, have been worse if it had been genuine support of Naziism rather than a gesture of hatred for the British state, bearing in mind the context; in 1940, there was still very much a living, middle-aged generation who'd been through the Tan War, not to mention the bittrer civil war over the Anglo-Irish Treaty that followed. I don't excuse, needless to say. The US was neutral at the time (were there still US interests dealing with Germany in 1940?), Hitler's genocides were unknown, and while Jews may not have been having as rough a ride in the US as Germany (the worst of which remained unknown to outsiders at that point in time, of course), they certainly weren't treated all that well across much of the world outside Nazi Germany, and in world where racial segregation was still rife.... If only mindless tribalism had died in the Forties, though, and not carried on in so many areas of the world since.

Even the 99% of them that were ills for thousands of years before hippies?

Especially those ones. The ill behaviour of the young about which Scorates complained? Bloody hippies! Started a lot of wars, too, them hippies.... That Hitler? Hippy! Stalin? Hippy! And don't even get me started on the Beatles....

 

[Fading Fast]

It doesn't even have to be anything *big.* Help your neighbor shovel her driveway, and be sure you don't throw your snow in hers. Look in on someone who has no one to look in on them. Give someone a ride who needs one, and don't dun them for gas money. Stop bitching about how everybody's getting something for nothing but you, and think instead about how you can help someone who has less than you. If everybody did that, whenever they saw the opportunity, without thinking about what's in it for them, this thread would be a whole lot shorter.

I already noted my agreement with this, but I thought I'd build it out a bit from my perspective. If you are in business, be honest with your customers. If you agree to do a job, do it well and don't cut corners. Stand behind your work not because it says so on a piece of paper, but because it is the right thing to do. As a customer, be honest with the business person. Pay him / her what you owe them on time. If you break something from negligence, don't try to disguise it as a defect to get "your" money back.

Where I'm trying to go is that in business or in daily life or in your charitable efforts, deal honestly and decently with your fellow man or woman, don't cut corners, don't try to get the best of "them," and do think about being in their shoes. While doing charitable work or just random acts of kindness (which I find are ridiculously rewarding for the doer) are important to making our society better, most of us engage in commerce everyday for a meaningful part of it - how much better would life be if those transactions were conducted with honesty, integrity and just a touch of compassion for your customer or for the business person.

That is the "small" change I try to make everyday and, yes, I've gotten cheated sometimes because of it, but I've also gotten incredibly rewarded (business people are so used to being treated harshly by so many of their customers, that when you treat them with respect, the results are incredible). And the same with how I treat my customers - I treat them how I like to be treated as a customer. Is all this easy - no. Does it cost time, money and angst sometimes - yes. But overall, I feel better about myself and I believe in some small way I've helped.

And to tie this back to the thread's theme. I grew up in a relatively small town where my father and grandmother had lived and run a small business for most of their lives. They conducted themselves the way I outlined above and taught me to do the same. I am stunned at how much less of that exists in the world today. My father conducted a lot of business with a handshake that today takes multiple pages of legal documents and sign-offs and he had almost no - and I mean this - problems. Yes, in his fifty plus years, he had some, of course, but less in ten years than I see in a month today despite all our legal disclaimers, etc. as there seemed to be an unwritten code of integrity then that appears to be going away.