The general decline in standards today

[Dixie_Amazon]

Really true. You have to be so careful when you get off of them. It's a very slow process, to minimize the chances of complication. People that stop taking them without weening off really aren't doing themselves any favors.

Even when switching them. I had severe side effects many years ago when I was switched from one to another.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The guy lived in one of the most lavish developments in the township, owned a sailboat, he and his wife both drove MBs or BMWs, whatever. On top of that, it turns out, his claim to a degree and graduate degree were both also found to be fabrications. I just don't understand how people get away with it.

That's the question everybody around here is asking right now. I can understand how somebody could steal huge amounts of money and get away with it in a big-city or big-corporate environment simply because it's easy to disappear into the crowd. But this is a small-town area -- there's no city around here with more than 8500 people, and the entire county has a population of less than 40,000. It's impossible to go about your daily business here without interacting closely with people who know you, know your family, know your family's family, and on and on.

And yet, despite the fact that this guy did not inherit wealth, did not marry wealth, and ran a handful of shoestring businesses while living a lavish life, nobody ever seems to have seriously questioned where he got his cash. He's an elderly, upper-middle-class white man, so nobody could ever possibly think "drug dealer" or "social leech," and he was seen with all the Right People, lived in all the Right Neighborhoods, and said all the Right Things often enough that people were just willing to assume he was on the square simplu because he looked and acted the part.

Call it "benefit of the doubt" or "willing suspension of disbelief," but either way he got away with it by cold-bloodedly lying to everyone he interacted with and counting on the power of his social position to deflect any unwanted inquiries. When the tumbrels finally roll, it's people like this who'll be the first ones rounded up.

The latest estimates are that of all the money raised by this organization in the past thirteen years, over half of it went into this man's pocket. Over *half.* And nobody said a word, nobody ever questioned, nobody ever dared to think that something wasn't right.

When did we, as a people, become such a race of complete and utter chumps?

 

[jamespowers]

That's the question everybody around here is asking right now. I can understand how somebody could steal huge amounts of money and get away with it in a big-city or big-corporate environment simply because it's easy to disappear into the crowd. But this is a small-town area -- there's no city around here with more than 8500 people, and the entire county has a population of less than 40,000. It's impossible to go about your daily business here without interacting closely with people who know you, know your family, know your family's family, and on and on.

And yet, despite the fact that this guy did not inherit wealth, did not marry wealth, and ran a handful of shoestring businesses while living a lavish life, nobody ever seems to have seriously questioned where he got his cash. He's an elderly, upper-middle-class white man, so nobody could ever possibly think "drug dealer" or "social leech," and he was seen with all the Right People, lived in all the Right Neighborhoods, and said all the Right Things often enough that people were just willing to assume he was on the square simplu because he looked and acted the part.

Call it "benefit of the doubt" or "willing suspension of disbelief," but either way he got away with it by cold-bloodedly lying to everyone he interacted with and counting on the power of his social position to deflect any unwanted inquiries. When the tumbrels finally roll, it's people like this who'll be the first ones rounded up.

The latest estimates are that of all the money raised by this organization in the past thirteen years, over half of it went into this man's pocket. Over *half.* And nobody said a word, nobody ever questioned, nobody ever dared to think that something wasn't right.

When did we, as a people, become such a race of complete and utter chumps?

About 1960.

 

[3PcSuit]

Most Interesting Man in the World, I can think of, oh, just a few problems in 1960! Maybe they didn't affect those of your gender or reflective wavelength B)

There was also this thing called the Cold War, the Soviet Bloc, and the Iron Curtain. Was the Cuban Missile Crisis in '60 or was that a year or two later?

Instead of ntipsychotic medicines, they had lobotomies. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[jamespowers]

Most Interesting Man in the World, I can think of, oh, just a few problems in 1960! Maybe they didn't affect those of your gender or reflective wavelength B)

There was also this thing called the Cold War, the Soviet Bloc, and the Iron Curtain. Was the Cuban Missile Crisis in '60 or was that a year or two later?

Instead of ntipsychotic medicines, they had lobotomies. Out of sight, out of mind.

Lobotomies explain a lot that happened since the 1960s.
The Cuban missile crisis was in October of 1962.

 

[dh66]

I knew a guy back in the 80s who was schizophrenic or something. He was a pretty cool guy, except when he wasn't, but he had some sort of surgical procedure done on his brain to "cure" him of his troubles. I don't know for sure if it was a lobotomy or not, but he had a nasty scar on his temple from it. Afterward he was still a pretty nice guy but he had the personality of a cardboard box. I don't know whatever happened to him, he quit hanging around our group of friends and eventually disappeared altogether.

 

[3PcSuit]

You're being pedantic and acting as if there were some hard line drawn where things were "bad" and things were "good."

I think if you were Black, living in the South, in 1959, you wouldn't have been too thrilled, or a woman who wanted to become a professional rather than a mother.

 

[Edward]

I knew a guy back in the 80s who was schizophrenic or something. He was a pretty cool guy, except when he wasn't, but he had some sort of surgical procedure done on his brain to "cure" him of his troubles. I don't know for sure if it was a lobotomy or not, but he had a nasty scar on his temple from it. Afterward he was still a pretty nice guy but he had the personality of a cardboard box. I don't know whatever happened to him, he quit hanging around our group of friends and eventually disappeared altogether.

Certainly sounds like a lobotomy. I don't think electro-shock therapy leaves scars, though it can do similar damage.

 

[LizzieMaine]

My mother had EST in the late sixties, and there were no scars other than the psychological ones.

To answer my own rhetorical question, posted earlier, I think the chumpification of America has been an ongoing process. I think it started in the postwar years, with the rise of the Boys and their "psychological marketing," but I think it really escalated from the early eighties forward, when the first generation of kids to grow up with television moved into positions of authority. This generation proved to be extraordinarily gullible when it came to believing that people who had more money/material prosperity than they did knew best on any subject -- and we see the results before us today.

This phenomenon was already well-noted in the early 90s. I clearly remember the late Mike Royko -- most certainly *not* part of that generation -- writing a column with a big streamer headline across the top of the page: WISE UP AMERICA AND STOP ACTING LIKE SUCH A BUNCH OF SAPS. I had that column hanging on the side of my refrigerator for more than a decade, and think it's more applicable now than ever.

 

[sheeplady]

Lobotomies were awful things... but when used on violent uncontrollable patients, they worked to make them calm by butchering their brains. Back when they were started, there weren't anti-psychotics. That left the only option was to tie them up when they were violent. My mother worked with some people who worked in the institutions before sedation and anti-psychotics were available. What these ladies said happened was the patient was tied to the bed, untied and tied to the wall, then tied to the bed at night. The patients were being treated worse than dogs as far as quality of life; but otherwise they would hurt themselves, other patients, and staff.

Severely psychotic patients who are violent are next to impossible to calm down without drugs, because they can't reach the rational part of their brain. Anyone who has ever seen someone in a psychotic break that is violent knows it is unlike anything else you will ever see.

With the only options being tying a violent person down, the lobotomy looked much more... humane. I'm not saying it is, but it was seen that way. With a lack of knowledge about the brain and mental illness, coupled with the stigma and intolerance of mental illness in society, and feeling mental patients weren't quite human; lobotomies became popular.

The issue with lobotomies (like ECT and a whole host of other "psychological treatments" and psychological treatments) is that they were vastly over prescribed. They were used on individuals that never ever should have been considered for a lobotomy even by those who considered lobotomy to be a cure because these patients weren't uncontrollably violent for extended periods. For example, the Kennedy sister, Rosemary, apparently had a lobotomy because she was sneaking out of school and her father was afraid she would "bring shame to the family." I think her story, like so many of these stories, is absolutely shameful and disgusting.

 

[Edward]

Yes, I'll be eternally thankful to live in an age where we're much more enlightened with regards to mental illness. Things aren't perfect, but medical treatment is now much more advanced and sympathetic (and, crucially, is focussed on the quality of life of the patient rather than on making those around them more comfortable, which was often the case, I think ,in the bad old 'lock 'em away' days). Public ignorance is still a problem, but even there big advances have been made, not least by those who have wielded celebrity power in a way which has normalised common health problems like depression.

 

[jamespowers]

To answer my own rhetorical question, posted earlier, I think the chumpification of America has been an ongoing process. I think it started in the postwar years, with the rise of the Boys and their "psychological marketing," but I think it really escalated from the early eighties forward, when the first generation of kids to grow up with television moved into positions of authority. This generation proved to be extraordinarily gullible when it came to believing that people who had more money/material prosperity than they did knew best on any subject -- and we see the results before us today.

I could see it beginning after WWII as the war was over and that generation came home and thought they could just relax now that the war was won. They raised their children in a way not at all consistent in the way in which they were raised and spawned a generation of hippies and ne’er-do-wells due to their unrelenting want to give their “kids everything they didn’t have.” Well, yeah, that was a great idea huh? :doh: They were minor league chumps but they raised MAJOR league chumps and that generation raised SUPER chumps.
I saw it in my own family. My uncles came back from the war and all they wanted to do was have fun and have their children be their friends----nothing like my grandparents raised them! It was the Nexus of what is wrong now. It had to start somewhere and it started there. Add in Dr. Spock and other nonsense backing up stupid and you get where we are now. :doh:

 

[Wally_Hood]

This is a popular story, often used to embarass the kids who adopt that style into pulling their trousers up (a tactic which largely plays on the perceived homophobia of such groups). I'm told, though, that this is infact an urban myth. The style does, however, ape "prison chic" insofar as inmates of American prisons, their belts confiscated in order to prevent them from forming a weapon or means of suicide, have trouble holding their trousers up. Cheap romanticisation of criminality, ultimately, which has become common in the mainstream of hip hop in more recent years (oddly so, as it is very much the opposite of how that started out, and there are all sorts of theories as to how this happened).

Interesting comments; I remember in high school (1972ish) the boys would let their waistlines hang quite low: one young athlete wore his low-slung jeans with a sort of a work shirt and a tie for his game day attire.
Now, when my dad saw the drooping pants he said, "Oh, no, are they doing that again?" He went to high school before WW2 and said that style was popular in his time.

 

[nick123]

Even though you might be correct, I'm not one to dictate or judge how a person wants to live when they return from a war. It's up to us to reverse the course, not them.

 

[Stearmen]

I could see it beginning after WWII as the war was over and that generation came home and thought they could just relax now that the war was won. They raised their children in a way not at all consistent in the way in which they were raised and spawned a generation of hippies and ne’er-do-wells due to their unrelenting want to give their “kids everything they didn’t have.” Well, yeah, that was a great idea huh? :doh: They were minor league chumps but they raised MAJOR league chumps and that generation raised SUPER chumps.
I saw it in my own family. My uncles came back from the war and all they wanted to do was have fun and have their children be their friends----nothing like my grandparents raised them! It was the Nexus of what is wrong now. It had to start somewhere and it started there. Add in Dr. Spock and other nonsense backing up stupid and you get where we are now. :doh:

I'm not sure what WWII veteran parents you were around, but I know from first hand experience, discipline was the name of the game! It was swift, and to the point and I never got what I wanted. God pity me if I through a tantrum. The rebellion was to all the authority, non stop, do as I say, don't think, just do what you are told to do.

 

[Edward]

Interesting comments; I remember in high school (1972ish) the boys would let their waistlines hang quite low: one young athlete wore his low-slung jeans with a sort of a work shirt and a tie for his game day attire.
Now, when my dad saw the drooping pants he said, "Oh, no, are they doing that again?" He went to high school before WW2 and said that style was popular in his time.

Now, that I didn't know - there truly is nothing new under the sun!

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm not talking the least bit about "discipline" or "respect for Authority." I'm talking about willingness to be duped into believing that The Rich Know Best Because They're Rich And Always Have My Best Interests At Heart.

America of the thirties was extremely skeptical about this particular point, given recent events, but by the middle of the fifties, postwar consumerism had ensured that trend was reversed. By the eighties, it had been completely obliterated. And things are worse now than ever. We are a Nation of Chumps.

 

[jamespowers]

I'm not sure what WWII veteran parents you were around, but I know from first hand experience, discipline was the name of the game! It was swift, and to the point and I never got what I wanted. God pity me if I through a tantrum. The rebellion was to all the authority, non stop, do as I say, don't think, just do what you are told to do.

They were not all that way or how would you explain the hippies----the children of that era??

 

[jamespowers]

Even though you might be correct, I'm not one to dictate or judge how a person wants to live when they return from a war. It's up to us to reverse the course, not them.

Great. They screw up and leave us to clean it up........ I will do my best to clean up the mess and not leave it to my children but I am just one person and out here, I am largely outnumbered by the children of the WWII generation pulling the other way with their entitlement mentalites.

 

[jamespowers]

I'm not talking the least bit about "discipline" or "respect for Authority." I'm talking about willingness to be duped into believing that The Rich Know Best Because They're Rich And Always Have My Best Interests At Heart.

America of the thirties was extremely skeptical about this particular point, given recent events, but by the middle of the fifties, postwar consumerism had ensured that trend was reversed. By the eighties, it had been completely obliterated. And things are worse now than ever. We are a Nation of Chumps.

I am saying the discipline and respect for authority suffered. We know their shortcomings by their fruit.
The rich have always been interested in benefitting themselves. That is nothing new there. Fortunately they cannot help create jobs for people by trying to get richer.