The general decline in standards today

[vintageTink]

But they sure as heck will go on SSI and welfare when they burn their brains out. Or maybe they are on those things alreadybecause they sure don't work stoned like that. :rofl:

And meanwhile, those who have paid in and need it can't get it. But that's another rant.

 

[justalex]

Please tell me you don't seriously believe this naive piece of business. Do you honestly believe in this day and age marijuana (or any drug/vice/medicine etc.) will be legalized and go unregulated?
For pete's sake our mayor in NYC butt his damn nose into how much soda I can buy at McDonalds!

That is the strange thing. Here in Washington there are all sorts of anti-tobacco laws, even the new electronic cigarettes cant be used within 25 feet of a business. But marijuana is completely legal here. Now there are regulations, your only allowed to have I think less than an ounce, and only smoke in your home, but it is still legal.

 

[Matt Crunk]

According to whom?

There is no such thing as absolute liberty, period. It doesn't exist, it has never existed, and God willing, it never will exist. The individual does not have the absolute right to drive the wrong way down a one way street, to shout "FIRE" in a crowded theatre, or to engage in any other activities that are damaging to society as a whole.

This does not specifically pertain to the marijuana issue, but to basic human rights in general, so I'll respond. Ever heard the saying, "Your rights end where my nose begins"? That pretty much sums up personal liberty in a nutshell. No, you can't drive the wrong way down a one-way street because that has a direct effect on the safety of others. Same with yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. But adults in a free society should have absolute control over their own bodies, which includes what they put in them. What consenting adults do to themselves or each other behind closed doors should be nobody's business but their own.

The main point of all the Abrahamic faiths is submission of the individual to a greater power, not exaltation of the individual. Or so I learned in Sunday School. I can't speak for the old Norse gods, since I'm a Methodist myself.

It's not the governments place to dictate the individual's personal morality. That is an issue between you, your faith, and your personal conscience.

 

[LizzieMaine]

What consenting adults do to themselves or each other behind closed doors should be nobody's business but their own..

Until the moment those things begin to cause damage in the greater society outside those closed doors.

I'll say before we go any further here that "libertarian" arguments carry absolutely no water with me. So don't even bother trying them.

 

[Matt Crunk]

I'll say before we go any further here that "libertarian" arguments carry absolutely no water with me. So don't even bother trying them.

Well, then you and I are evidently much father apart than I once thought, for I am a complete and total Libertarian. Frankly I believe the Federal Government has no business in our individual lives whatsoever. It's constitutional job is to provide for a common defense and regulate interstate commerce, period. All other governing should be left to state and local municipalities.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Well, then you and I are evidently much father apart than I once thought, for I am a complete and total Libertarian. Frankly I believe the Federal Government has no business in our individual lives whatsoever. It's constitutional job is to provide for a common defense and regulate interstate commerce, period. All other governing should be left to state and local municipalities.

Well, I am and have always been a Communitarian, and a lifelong New Dealer, a firm believer in a regulated economy, and a staunch labor unionist. I had imagined that these views had come thru rather strongly in many of my posts.

 

[sheeplady]

Marinol is not without side effects. It can and does cause effects like paranoia, seizures, heart palpitations, and a feeling of being high. It is also only useful for appetite stimulation in chemotherapy. It is very useful if you have sores in your mouth, are vomiting, having such bad nausea, etc. you can't eat. It is absolutely useless in treating neuropathy and pain associated with chemotherapy. With some chemo drugs, people are left with such pain that they cannot walk.

No matter how many people you've seen with chemo, it is *nothing* compared to having to go through a course of it yourself. After you've spent your 5, 7, or 9 months of your life puking so hard your guts hurt, losing 3 pounds or more a week, no longer having a functional digestive system, no longer sleeping because of the pain, having migraines so bad you've passed out, and not being able to walk then you can come back here and talk about how evil it is for a cancer patient to use cannabis. Even then I won't believe you that the side effects of cannabis are worse than the side effects of chemo. Every oncologist I've met has encouraged the legalization of cannabis for cancer patients.

There is preliminary evidence that components of cannabis are effective against some types of cancer that are hard to treat. These types of cancer have overall survival rates of less than 50% five years after diagnosis. It's not a miracle drug, but for some things like some sub-types of breast cancer, it is the most promising thing out there. I'm sorry, but being against a clinical trial using a component of cannabis which might save people's lives purely because you are against people getting high makes you a very, very, very shortsighted person. Personally, I also think it makes you evil.

Most cancer patients who use cannabis aren't getting high every night. Most probably aren't getting high at all. The nice thing about cannabis is you can carefully adjust your dose, go on and off as you please, etc. This is much easier to do than with Marinol. And considering that chemotherapy is pure evilness in a drip bag and syringe, I couldn't care less if cancer patients were getting high every night. Cancer is evil. Chemo is evil. If people who are going through cancer need to get high once in a while to get through it, all the power to them.

But maybe all us cancer survivors who support medical cannabis and research on cannabis treatments to save lives are just crybaby dopers.

 

[sheeplady]

Also, the other thing I would like to add is that there are many strains of cannabis. Many of the strains recommended for chemotherapy treatment and for treatment of cancer in general aren't high in THC (the component that makes you high). Most are quite low, because the last thing cancer patients need is to feel high all the time. Strains have been cultivated to specifically be high in different aspects of cannabinoids and other substances, but lower in THC for medical purposes.

This is not dope you get on the corner- it is a medical substance you work on getting with your team of treatment professionals. Your oncologist recommends a certain strain and works closely with you to ensure that you are getting the maximum dose of the aspects of the drug you need, without the side effect of getting high.

But heaven forbid someone get a treatment that their oncologist recommends because some people use a different strain of it to get high.

 

[jamespowers]

Marinol is not without side effects. It can and does cause effects like paranoia, seizures, heart palpitations, and a feeling of being high. It is also only useful for appetite stimulation in chemotherapy. It is very useful if you have sores in your mouth, are vomiting, having such bad nausea, etc. you can't eat. It is absolutely useless in treating neuropathy and pain associated with chemotherapy. With some chemo drugs, people are left with such pain that they cannot walk.

No matter how many people you've seen with chemo, it is *nothing* compared to having to go through a course of it yourself. After you've spent your 5, 7, or 9 months of your life puking so hard your guts hurt, losing 3 pounds or more a week, no longer having a functional digestive system, no longer sleeping because of the pain, having migraines so bad you've passed out, and not being able to walk then you can come back here and talk about how evil it is for a cancer patient to use cannabis. Even then I won't believe you that the side effects of cannabis are worse than the side effects of chemo. Every oncologist I've met has encouraged the legalization of cannabis for cancer patients.

There is preliminary evidence that components of cannabis are effective against some types of cancer that are hard to treat. These types of cancer have overall survival rates of less than 50% five years after diagnosis. It's not a miracle drug, but for some things like some sub-types of breast cancer, it is the most promising thing out there. I'm sorry, but being against a clinical trial using a component of cannabis which might save people's lives purely because you are against people getting high makes you a very, very, very shortsighted person. Personally, I also think it makes you evil.

Most cancer patients who use cannabis aren't getting high every night. Most probably aren't getting high at all. The nice thing about cannabis is you can carefully adjust your dose, go on and off as you please, etc. This is much easier to do than with Marinol. And considering that chemotherapy is pure evilness in a drip bag and syringe, I couldn't care less if cancer patients were getting high every night. Cancer is evil. Chemo is evil. If people who are going through cancer need to get high once in a while to get through it, all the power to them.

But maybe all us cancer survivors who support medical cannabis and research on cannabis treatments to save lives are just crybaby dopers.

Evil?! Seriously? This has gone from a civil argument to name calling?! Perhaps you need to dial it back a bit.
My mother DIED of breast cancer---and used Marinol to good effect. She had NO side effects and it worked just fine until the end when she had to use legal Morphine.
Previously she had all the symptoms you described. Count yourself lucky you survived without worrying about evil. You are here to make an argument which is more than can be said for others.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

It's not the governments place to dictate the individual's personal morality. That is an issue between you, your faith, and your personal conscience.

Absent faith, what's the point of morality if it is whatever you want it to be?

 

[sheeplady]

Evil?! Seriously? This has gone from a civil argument to name calling?! Perhaps you need to dial it back a bit.
My mother DIED of breast cancer---and used Marinol to good effect. She had NO side effects and it worked just fine until the end when she had to use legal Morphine.
Previously she had all the symptoms you described. Count yourself lucky you survived without worrying about evil. You are here to make an argument which is more than can be said for others.

Actually, I am currently undergoing treatment for breast cancer. I've been given a 20% chance of living to see my daughter's 3rd birthday, she was three weeks old when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So don't be so quick to call me lucky. You're a survivor the minute you're diagnosed, even if it kills you. Thank you for all the negativity you are sending towards someone in treatment, I am sure your mom would be proud. I am sorry to hear that your mom died of BC.

Yes, I do think people who want to stop basic research on how to use components of cannabis for cancer treatment purely because people get high on the whole substance. You say that your mom used Marinol. I do think you're evil if you support the use of Marinol but refuse to let other basic research on using other components of cannabis. Marinol is part of cannabis. You're not being logical at all.

If another component of cannabis could have saved your mother's life, would you have supported such research? If not, I'm sorry, but you're evil.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yes, I do think people who want to stop basic research on how to use components of cannabis for cancer treatment purely because people get high on the whole substance. You say that your mom used Marinol. I do think you're evil if you support the use of Marinol but refuse to let other basic research on using other components of cannabis. Marinol is part of cannabis. You're not being logical at all.

I don't remember seeing anyone in this discussion say research shouldn't be done on such things. It's illegal to grow opium poppies and coca plants, except for purposes of medical research, and that research is done and products of those plants are used in medical surroundings. I was given morphine when I was in the hospital, and I appreciated the help it gave me, but that doesn't mean I endorse, or would ever endorse opiates being legal for any form of unsupervised or recreational use.

Medical research is done under controlled conditions in laboratories by trained professionals, which is as it should be. It isn't done in the back seat of a van up behind the gravel pit on a Saturday night. And as the presence of diverted liquid THC from a medical-marijuana dispensary in the incident which led to my friend's hospitalization indicates, the current system for distributing medical-marijuana products needs to be controlled and supervised more tightly than it currently is. And it isn't just Maine where this is a problem.

"I am sure that many people feel as I do that the marijuana weed everywhere should be destroyed. If a quantity of this weed is needed for medicinal purposes, then it should be grown under strict control and supervision. It should certainly not be available to our young people."

-- Eleanor Roosevelt, 1951

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Jeeze..what an increasingly enjoyable read.
Anything to get an insistent point across and insult further those who may fail to completely agree.

 

[Touchofevil]

Marinol worked as well as anything probably could have for my Mother during her five plus year battle with cancer. I will never have any inkling as to the pain she lived with as the cancer spread throughout her body. She never once used marijuana to ease her pain, but if she chose to I would have been all for it. I despise marijuana for what I see it do to way too many people who ignorantly believe it to be God's Gift to mankind. Unfortunately too many touting its medical benefits are really idiots looking to get high or make a quick buck. If medical marijuana were really for those who need it instead of the I-am-stressed-and-need-a-script-because-I-want-to-get-high group, it might not be as big of an issue for some.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

If another component of cannabis could have saved your mother's life, would you have supported such research? If not, I'm sorry, but you're evil.

[video=youtube;FONN-0uoTHI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI[/video]

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Marinol worked as well as anything probably could have for my Mother during her five plus year battle with cancer. I will never have any inkling as to the pain she lived with as the cancer spread throughout her body. She never once used marijuana to ease her pain, but if she chose to I would have been all for it. I despise marijuana for what I see it do to way too many people who ignorantly believe it to be God's Gift to mankind. Unfortunately too many touting its medical benefits are really idiots looking to get high or make a quick buck. If medical marijuana were really for those who need it instead of the I-am-stressed-and-need-a-script-because-I-want-to-get-high group, it might not be as big of an issue for some.

Exactly.
Good post.

 

[Matt Crunk]

Absent faith, what's the point of morality if it is whatever you want it to be?

Even atheists have a moral compass, an internal sense of right and wrong. I think we would all universally agree that certain things are wrong: Robbery, Rape, Murder, etc. The problem comes in when you try to dictate my lifestyle based on your faith, or I try to dictate yours based on mine. That's the whole crux of the separation of church and state debate.

 

[sheeplady]

I don't remember seeing anyone in this discussion say research shouldn't be done on such things. It's illegal to grow opium poppies and coca plants, except for purposes of medical research, and that research is done and products of those plants are used in medical surroundings. I was given morphine when I was in the hospital, and I appreciated the help it gave me, but that doesn't mean I endorse, or would ever endorse opiates being legal for any form of unsupervised or recreational use.

Medical research is done under controlled conditions in laboratories by trained professionals, which is as it should be. It isn't done in the back seat of a van up behind the gravel pit on a Saturday night. And as the presence of diverted liquid THC from a medical-marijuana dispensary in the incident which led to my friend's hospitalization indicates, the current system for distributing medical-marijuana products needs to be controlled and supervised more tightly than it currently is. And it isn't just Maine where this is a problem.

"I am sure that many people feel as I do that the marijuana weed everywhere should be destroyed. If a quantity of this weed is needed for medicinal purposes, then it should be grown under strict control and supervision. It should certainly not be available to our young people."

-- Eleanor Roosevelt, 1951

There are people who do lump basic research using cannabis for medical purposes as being morally wrong. I have met these people. And I do think these people are evil to paint cannabis as such an evil substance that medical research should not be conducted on it. Drugs that have come from components of cannabis are godsends.

There are a whole host of things that are considered morally wrong by people. For instance, many people don't support research with stem cells even though they may save lives, as most stem cells come from abortions. Just like stem cell research, there are people who don't support cannabis research.

 

[sheeplady]

Wow! :eeek:

Wouldn't you think people who kept a life saving substance from someone is evil?

I'm sorry, but I see no problem with calling evil where I see it. I don't think jamespowers is evil, I think he misunderstood me. I asked him this question because it gets at the absurdity of people who think all cannabis is evil. I believe that he supports basic research on Cannabis, otherwise he wouldn't be a fan of Marinol, which is why I told him his thinking was inconsistent.

I do believe people who don't support this kind of basic research for baseless reasons like "pot is horrible" are evil to keep potential cures from women and men like his mother. Sorry, but I can't see letting someone die because of "higher morals" is somehow nice or ambivalent.

ETA: I am sorry to James, and I didn't mean to imply that you'd let your mother die. I don't think anyone who has a family member with cancer would ban such research- but there are many that would.

Medical cannabis to treat the side effects of cancer is different than the research debate. I do think people who don't support medical cannabis to treat patients, particularly terminally ill patients, to be more than a little misguided. I wouldn't call them evil, however. I reserve my description of evil for people who want to ban cannabis research, because it's a drug or some silly nonsense.

 

[Touchofevil]

There are people who do lump basic research using cannabis for medical purposes as being morally wrong. I have met these people. And I do think these people are evil to paint cannabis as such an evil substance that medical research should not be conducted on it. Drugs that have come from components of cannabis are godsends.

There are a whole host of things that are considered morally wrong by people. For instance, many people don't support research with stem cells even though they may save lives, as most stem cells come from abortions. Just like stem cell research, there are people who don't support cannabis research.

With limited experiences comes limited responses. Some have only seen the wreck that marijuana creates and as a result their reactions might be that it can only be bad; that does not make them evil. Evil intentionally inflicts pain upon others; that is its purpose.