The general decline in standards today

[vitanola]

It's a nice quiet neighborhood except for the playground and the big house a couple doors down from it -- the playground is a popular trysting place for all sorts of vice, and the big house has hosted a series of drug labs. They had crack in there for a while, and then meth. It's getting to be like Scollay Square in Boston -- "Always Something Doing."

The big problem here is that there's no jobs for the working-class kids anymore. Used to be they could work in the canneries or the coat factory or the snowplow factory, but the plow place is the only factory left, and they don't have many openings. So they work at Burger King and hang around on the streets and get into drugs and booze and trouble, because all the decent jobs have been shipped to Korea and China and Bangladesh.

Idle hands, you know.

Our drug problem, and we do have one, tends to be centered out in the countryside. We are in a farming district, and the consolidation of farming in the past couple of generations had left hundreds of surplus isolated farmhouses on the rental market. The drug makers tend to choose these, for they are out in the Townships where the police presence is practically nil.

I do fear for the next couple of decades, for the time when there are no jobs for our young here, and no place for them to go to get work.

 

[jamespowers]

It's a nice quiet neighborhood except for the playground and the big house a couple doors down from it -- the playground is a popular trysting place for all sorts of vice, and the big house has hosted a series of drug labs. They had crack in there for a while, and then meth. It's getting to be like Scollay Square in Boston -- "Always Something Doing."

The big problem here is that there's no jobs for the working-class kids anymore. Used to be they could work in the canneries or the coat factory or the snowplow factory, but the plow place is the only factory left, and they don't have many openings. So they work at Burger King and hang around on the streets and get into drugs and booze and trouble, because all the decent jobs have been shipped to Korea and China and Bangladesh.

That big house needs to get confiscated with asset forfeiture laws if the own is knowingly using the property for a string of illegal activities. I got rid of one on the other side of town when a poor senior citizen complained about the same kinds of activities going on in a house down the street from her. She sent a letter to the property owner informing him that his property was involved in illegal drug activities and that he now formally knew what was going on there. She also might have mentioned that a copy of said letter was also going to the police department to be sure that if anything happened in the next few years then his property would no longer be his.
Those people were evicted ASAP. It was like greased lightning. lol lol It is amazing that the pen is indeed mightier than the sword.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The tenants in that house have been some real prize packages. The last guy was convinced that someone was trying to rob him, so he called the police -- and when they arrived they saw his whole meth setup right there in the kitchen. Next thing you know there's a hazmat team in there cleaning him out. Just another day in the 'hood.

 

[sheeplady]

That big house needs to get confiscated with asset forfeiture laws if the own is knowingly using the property for a string of illegal activities. I got rid of one on the other side of town when a poor senior citizen complained about the same kinds of activities going on in a house down the street from her. She sent a letter to the property owner informing him that his property was involved in illegal drug activities and that he now formally knew what was going on there. She also might have mentioned that a copy of said letter was also going to the police department to be sure that if anything happened in the next few years then his property would no longer be his.
Those people were evicted ASAP. It was like greased lightning. lol lol It is amazing that the pen is indeed mightier than the sword.

Some landlords don't care if they loose the property, though, and the community is left out in the cold. Here we have a lot of landlords who don't pay their taxes (having paid very little for the property sometimes as little as a few thousand dollars or less) but since their tenants are on section 8, they collect money directly from the state. Threatening that they would loose the house (which they probably will for non-paid taxes) means nothing because they are basically just using it as a free money collector. Since the city can't actually seize all of the properties (they have problems managing the ones they do seize, many people get away without paying taxes far beyond the 3 year time limit). These landlords tend to live out of state, which I guess complicates things.

 

[jamespowers]

Some landlords don't care if they loose the property, though, and the community is left out in the cold. Here we have a lot of landlords who don't pay their taxes (having paid very little for the property sometimes as little as a few thousand dollars or less) but since their tenants are on section 8, they collect money directly from the state. Threatening that they would loose the house (which they probably will for non-paid taxes) means nothing because they are basically just using it as a free money collector. Since the city can't actually seize all of the properties (they have problems managing the ones they do seize, many people get away without paying taxes far beyond the 3 year time limit). These landlords tend to live out of state, which I guess complicates things.

We don't have that problem here. They take it, sell it and stick the money in the general fund. It is a HUGE incentive to local government because they will crawl up a skunks behind to get a dollar aorund here.

 

[jamespowers]

The tenants in that house have been some real prize packages. The last guy was convinced that someone was trying to rob him, so he called the police -- and when they arrived they saw his whole meth setup right there in the kitchen. Next thing you know there's a hazmat team in there cleaning him out. Just another day in the 'hood.

You mean at that point the landlord was not relieved of his property?! That is nuts. Send him a letter now.

 

[sheeplady]

We don't have that problem here. They take it, sell it and stick the money in the general fund. It is a HUGE incentive to local government because they will crawl up a skunks behind to get a dollar aorund here.

Yeah, the problem is most of these properties won't sell, so then the city is stuck with them, so often the city doesn't possess them (it costs more than $1,000 to board them up, watch them, etc.). We made the national news a few years ago for having so many properties for sale for $1,000 or less. If they do sell, they sell to more of the same landlords. Granted, this is in the worst part of the city and not all over, but it is far from isolated- last year the city put up over 3,500 properties for sale for delinquent taxes- they might sell a third of them.

Not surprisingly, nobody wants to buy a house in a place where the city owns so many properties and your house is worth $1,000... unless you're a slum landlord.

 

[jamespowers]

Yeah, the problem is most of these properties won't sell, so then the city is stuck with them, so often the city doesn't possess them (it costs more than $1,000 to board them up, watch them, etc.). We made the national news a few years ago for having so many properties for sale for $1,000 or less. If they do sell, they sell to more of the same landlords. Granted, this is in the worst part of the city and not all over, but it is far from isolated- last year the city put up over 3,500 properties for sale for delinquent taxes- they might sell a third of them.

Not surprisingly, nobody wants to buy a house in a place where the city owns so many properties and your house is worth $1,000... unless you're a slum landlord.

Hmmmmm....$1000 houses. Hmmmmmm......

 

[sheeplady]

Hmmmmm....$1000 houses. Hmmmmmm......

Yeah, the funny thing is that there was a discussion a few years ago: should the city be seizing these properties for $3,000 in back taxes if they won't sell and will need to be demolished in a few years at the city's expense- for $50,000 a pop. We had a major mall expansion go up here, and the owner failed to meet his contract from the city as far as completion deadlines, the consequence was that the owner had to start paying taxes on the mall. The city and the owner renegotiated and he paid the city a couple million dollars- half of which would go to demolishing city-owned properties and the other half to repairing roads.

I've always thought they should just give the properties to homeless people and let them live tax free for 5 years- if they maintain the house without any illegal activity they get to keep it and start paying taxes. At least then it wouldn't be vacant and there's a chance it might regain tax status.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The amazing thing is, the Drug House has already been siezed and resold -- the people who were there before got evicted and the place was condemned, sold to a new out-of-state owner, and rehabbed just enough to be livable again. And the first tenant they get in there turns out to be Mickey Methcooker.

It's a sad house, actually -- there was a fire there in the '70s, when some kids lit a chair on fire for laughs and pushed it down the stairwell, where it got stuck and the smoke killed them. Those who believe in destiny suggest bad things will be destined to always happen there because of that incident. The playground was built on the site of another house that burned to the ground around the same time, which only adds to the mystique.

 

[jamespowers]

The amazing thing is, the Drug House has already been siezed and resold -- the people who were there before got evicted and the place was condemned, sold to a new out-of-state owner, and rehabbed just enough to be livable again. And the first tenant they get in there turns out to be Mickey Methcooker.

It's a sad house, actually -- there was a fire there in the '70s, when some kids lit a chair on fire for laughs and pushed it down the stairwell, where it got stuck and the smoke killed them. Those who believe in such things suggest bad things will be destined to always happen there because of that incident. The playground was built on the site of another house that burned to the ground around the same time, which only adds to the mystique.

Oh geez! It needs to be seized again and exorcized!

 

[jamespowers]

Yeah, the funny thing is that there was a discussion a few years ago: should the city be seizing these properties for $3,000 in back taxes if they won't sell and will need to be demolished in a few years at the city's expense- for $50,000 a pop. We had a major mall expansion go up here, and the owner failed to meet his contract from the city as far as completion deadlines, the consequence was that the owner had to start paying taxes on the mall. The city and the owner renegotiated and he paid the city a couple million dollars- half of which would go to demolishing city-owned properties and the other half to repairing roads.

I've always thought they should just give the properties to homeless people and let them live tax free for 5 years- if they maintain the house without any illegal activity they get to keep it and start paying taxes. At least then it wouldn't be vacant and there's a chance it might regain tax status.

Well, the first thing I would try to figure out is how a property only worth $1000 is getting $3000 worth of back taxes accumulated. I mean I know you guys don't have Proposition 13 out there but that is ridiculous.
I had one property out here that has been in my family for three generations. The local government passed some stupid land use laws that essentially made my land worth nothing. They came knocking for property tax. Big mistake. I told them that they made it worthless so the tax they get is nothing. They had to concede. I still own it and pay nothing in property tax.
Isuppose they could give away the property to the economically distressed but I would prefer it be to some that have lost their jobs and just need a hand up to get back ont heir feet. They also need to keep it up as you mentioned. However, I have found that anything you give for free tends to be taken care of as if it were free.:eusa_doh:

 

[John in Covina]

It's a sad house, actually -- there was a fire there in the '70s, when some kids lit a chair on fire for laughs and pushed it down the stairwell, where it got stuck and the smoke killed them. .

Darwinian.

 

[sheeplady]

Well, the first thing I would try to figure out is how a property only worth $1000 is getting $3000 worth of back taxes accumulated. I mean I know you guys don't have Proposition 13 out there but that is ridiculous.
I had one property out here that has been in my family for three generations. The local government passed some stupid land use laws that essentially made my land worth nothing. They came knocking for property tax. Big mistake. I told them that they made it worthless so the tax they get is nothing. They had to concede. I still own it and pay nothing in property tax.
Isuppose they could give away the property to the economically distressed but I would prefer it be to some that have lost their jobs and just need a hand up to get back ont heir feet. They also need to keep it up as you mentioned. However, I have found that anything you give for free tends to be taken care of as if it were free.:eusa_doh:

The problem is that the taxes accumulate for years (unpaid) and the property's assessment is higher than the sale value. That and taxes are so high because so few of the properties pay taxes. It's messed up.

I'm halfway joking about the homeless idea, but I can't imagine it is any worse than what happens now. You'd probably get the same result.

 

[jamespowers]

The problem is that the taxes accumulate for years (unpaid) and the property's assessment is higher than the sale value. That and taxes are so high because so few of the properties pay taxes. It's messed up.

I'm halfway joking about the homeless idea, but I can't imagine it is any worse than what happens now. You'd probably get the same result.

Aren't the taxes based on a percentage of assessed value? Over here, if the property value goes down you get the county to reassess the property and you taxes fall as a result. You have a lose/lose situation there if there is no fix there. I wouldn't buy that property either if I figured they wanted to fleece me.
I think you could revitalize the area but it would have to be done with a very good plan or it will just be moving chess pieces around a chess board, as you mentioned.

 

[sheeplady]

Aren't the taxes based on a percentage of assessed value? Over here, if the property value goes down you get the county to reassess the property and you taxes fall as a result. You have a lose/lose situation there if there is no fix there. I wouldn't buy that property either if I figured they wanted to fleece me.
I think you could revitalize the area but it would have to be done with a very good plan or it will just be moving chess pieces around a chess board, as you mentioned.

I think the problem with revitalization is that there is little opportunity here for growth. Our city is shrinking and with a shrinking population it's hard to keep the housing stock filled. The area also has a lot of crime- they shot a toddler a year ago as part of a gang retaliation and it's not uncommon for young children to be violently attacked for things like bikes or musical instruments or anything. Granted, there are only 10-20 or so incidents like that per year in that neighborhood, but most good people are clawing their way out of there.

Our taxes are based upon a percentage of the value of the home. Where I live we pay about 5% of our accessed value in taxes (school and general property)- I just calculated that based upon our accessed value (higher than what we paid for our home, but the government adjusted it the next year) and what we paid in taxes this year. That is with rebates for this being our primary home from NYS. So if a property is accessed at $10,000; that would mean about $500 in taxes per year, and most of these homes are rentals and don't qualify for rebates. So I imagine that is more like $700 and it only takes a few years to accumulate enough taxes.

That and these landlords don't care; they aren't going to pay them anyways, so why petition the government for lower taxes.

 

[jamespowers]

I think the problem with revitalization is that there is little opportunity here for growth. Our city is shrinking and with a shrinking population it's hard to keep the housing stock filled. The area also has a lot of crime- they shot a toddler a year ago as part of a gang retaliation and it's not uncommon for young children to be violently attacked for things like bikes or musical instruments or anything. Granted, there are only 10-20 or so incidents like that per year in that neighborhood, but most good people are clawing their way out of there.

Our taxes are based upon a percentage of the value of the home. Where I live we pay about 5% of our accessed value in taxes (school and general property)- I just calculated that based upon our accessed value (higher than what we paid for our home, but the government adjusted it the next year) and what we paid in taxes this year. That is with rebates for this being our primary home from NYS. So if a property is accessed at $10,000; that would mean about $500 in taxes per year, and most of these homes are rentals and don't qualify for rebates. So I imagine that is more like $700 and it only takes a few years to accumulate enough taxes.

That and these landlords don't care; they aren't going to pay them anyways, so why petition the government for lower taxes.

If a property is only worth $1000 that means they would pay $50 a year. That shouldn't accumulate so quickly.
Wow! You pay three times more in property tax than I do(as a percentage).

You are scaring me out there. I suppose the best thing to do would be to just start over. Areas of Michigan are also contracting. They went in with bulldozers and knocked whole neighborhoods down because they were empty and a blight.:eusa_doh:

 

[1961MJS]

Aren't the taxes based on a percentage of assessed value? Over here, if the property value goes down you get the county to reassess the property and you taxes fall as a result. You have a lose/lose situation there if there is no fix there. I wouldn't buy that property either if I figured they wanted to fleece me.
I think you could revitalize the area but it would have to be done with a very good plan or it will just be moving chess pieces around a chess board, as you mentioned.

My Dad told the village secretary that you should have the option of selling your house to the city for it's appraised value. The mayor didn't like the idea much. As much as I dislike government intervention, it might be worth while for the government to tear down houses and businesses (especially those with Asbestos) and then sell the land to get our money back.

Later

 

[jamespowers]

My Dad told the village secretary that you should have the option of selling your house to the city for it's appraised value. The mayor didn't like the idea much. As much as I dislike government intervention, it might be worth while for the government to tear down houses and businesses (especially those with Asbestos) and then sell the land to get our money back.

LaterLater

We had that here in the form of redevlopment(which is now dead thank God). The problem is that you end up losing money as the property is worth less developed than it is as bare land.:eusa_doh:That ended up incurring debt like crazy. :eusa_doh:
I suppose if it is cheap enough then it might be worthwhile but I am not sure how.[huh]
Yes, you should have that option your father mentioned. Let them figure out how they can get out of that one.

 

[sheeplady]

If a property is only worth $1000 that means they would pay $50 a year. That shouldn't accumulate so quickly.
Wow! You pay three times more in property tax than I do(as a percentage).

You are scaring me out there. I suppose the best thing to do would be to just start over. Areas of Michigan are also contracting. They went in with bulldozers and knocked whole neighborhoods down because they were empty and a blight.:eusa_doh:

The problem is the government would never assess the property at $1,000. At first I was really kind of against "planned contracting" where housing stock is purposefully destroyed because a lot of these places are gorgeous old victorians, but nothing else has worked.

Our property taxes went up significantly because the county used to share it's sales tax 4% with the city and towns (townships- in NYS there is the state, county, and then town levels of government). I live on the edge of the city but not in the city proper, so I live in a town. The county struck a deal with the city to give all the sales tax revenue collected in the county to the city because the city is in financial trouble. There is not much left in the city itself as far as work (many of the businesses have moved out to the suburbs) except for the largest employers: the university and the hospitals. And they don't pay taxes as non-profits.

Anyways, despite all of this, the city is still in financial trouble and the only way I see any way out now is to plan to destroy some of the housing stock, and eventually turn off service to those areas. The only other solution is to get some business into the area, but that doesn't seem to be working either.