The general decline in standards today

[Tango Yankee]

Again, we're not all that civilized.

And, unfortunately, becoming less and less so.

We actually like and expect our politicians to have some worry about being shot dead.

No, no we do not. You personally may, but I don't believe the majority of our citizens agree with you.

One thing is that the defenition of militia was consider to be any able bodied man from mid teens to about 60 years of age that could shoulder a rifle and that they were to provide their own rifle. We are not talking about the state militia or National Guard here. It was not considered that it was a national, state government vested militia but local communities organized to respond quickly. The idea as a frontier nation those that could bare arms would do so to protect the community and themselves, in the present day were still have bad guys doing bad things so the need has not diminessed everywheres.

I have no quarrel with your definition of a militia, but how many local communities are organized to respond quickly? Just about none, I expect. And such militias were about self-defense of the community, not about responding to individual bad guys. The only "organized" militias out there these days are likely to be on the FBI's watch list as being organized against our government, not for defense of the community (other than their own enclave.)

I'd like to ask if you don't trust your neighbor to own a gun why would you trust them with the ability to vote?

I don't because I believe that most don't give the issues a lot of thought and instead vote purely on emotions regarding one or two hot-button topics, but whatcha gonna do? [huh]

There are those who like to say "An armed society is a polite society." Well, I politely disagree. I believe that an armed society is a scared society. While I am not rabidly anti-gun it saddens me that so many in our country feel the need to have and carry one for self defense (many rightly so.) However, I recognize that just banning guns is not going to solve things. Until we as a society are willing to address society's ills that contribute to and feed this culture of fear we are not going to resolve the gun issue. A massive culture shift is required, and I don't see that happening for a very long time.

And yes, I do have guns in the house, primarily for dealing with varmints as I live in a rural area. And it isn't because of fear of criminals that I often consider a handgun, but the fact that so many of my neighbors are likely to have them. This isn't a close-knit community.

Regards,
Tom

 

[LizzieMaine]

There are those who like to say "An armed society is a polite society." Well, I politely disagree. I believe that an armed society is a scared society. While I am not rabidly anti-gun it saddens me that so many in our country feel the need to have and carry one for self defense (many rightly so.) However, I recognize that just banning guns is not going to solve things. Until we as a society are willing to address society's ills that contribute to and feed this culture of fear we are not going to resolve the gun issue. A massive culture shift is required, and I don't see that happening for a very long time.

Agreed. I own a gun, but the whole ideological "gun issue" doesn't matter to me one way or another, to be honest. I'm not happy that I feel that I need to own a gun -- in fact, I bitterly resent the fact that drugs and crime in my area have reached the point where I feel safer having one in the house than in not having one. Get rid of the drugs, the drug dealers, and the drug abusers, and I'll happily and gladly get rid of my gun.

 

[Edward]

Generally speaking, whatever happened to babysitters? Why must modern parents feel they have to bring their children everywhere they go, including to events the kid couldn't possibly comprehend or appreciate? I've been given the stink-eye by such parents for making them buy a separate ticket for their three-year-old, only to have Mama end up sitting in the lobby for most of the picture trying to get Little Wonderful to settle down. Makes no sense to me.

(Emphasis mine).

I don't get it either. I understand entirely that people's kids are important to them (there would be something very wrong if not), but why some folks seem to then think that my would should also bend the knee to little Johnny.... A lot of what I see kids indulged in nowadays amazes me. I'd never have gotten away with the half of it - nor would I have expected to.

But having a gun sure makes it a hell of a lot easier.

I think it helps.

[video=youtube;KsN0FCXw914]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914[/video]

 

[MikeBravo]

There are those who like to say "An armed society is a polite society." Well, I politely disagree. I believe that an armed society is a scared society. While I am not rabidly anti-gun it saddens me that so many in our country feel the need to have and carry one for self defense (many rightly so.) However, I recognize that just banning guns is not going to solve things. Until we as a society are willing to address society's ills that contribute to and feed this culture of fear we are not going to resolve the gun issue. A massive culture shift is required, and I don't see that happening for a very long time.

And yes, I do have guns in the house, primarily for dealing with varmints as I live in a rural area. And it isn't because of fear of criminals that I often consider a handgun, but the fact that so many of my neighbors are likely to have them. This isn't a close-knit community.

Regards,
Tom

You may have a point there. My niece recently married a lovely young man from St. Louis, Missouri. He was telling his father how safe it was to walk alone in the streets here in Australia, his father was very concerned that he was becoming complacent and told him to be very careful. Apparently in St Louis many people are afraid to go into the street alone and congregate in groups to walk down the street, these are complete strangers they walk with, safety in numbers is the key.

His parents came out for the wedding and travelled to Sydney, our largest city. Garrett and his father were walking in the city at 11 o'clock at night, and his father couldn't believe how safe he felt. They could see a lot of people out and about yet still wasn't worried.

I don't want to sound like we don't have crime here, of course we do; it's just that one is much less likely to be killed.

 

[MikeBravo]

Agreed. I own a gun, but the whole ideological "gun issue" doesn't matter to me one way or another, to be honest. I'm not happy that I feel that I need to own a gun -- in fact, I bitterly resent the fact that drugs and crime in my area have reached the point where I feel safer having one in the house than in not having one. Get rid of the drugs, the drug dealers, and the drug abusers, and I'll happily and gladly get rid of my gun.

In your case I can definitely understand you having a gun at hand, with rapists, druggies and so on.

 

[TomS]

Agreed. I own a gun, but the whole ideological "gun issue" doesn't matter to me one way or another, to be honest. I'm not happy that I feel that I need to own a gun -- in fact, I bitterly resent the fact that drugs and crime in my area have reached the point where I feel safer having one in the house than in not having one. Get rid of the drugs, the drug dealers, and the drug abusers, and I'll happily and gladly get rid of my gun.

You have, in just a few sentences, cut to the heart of this issue... It isn't actually about the *gun* at all, but more about the associated issues.

Thanks very much for refocusing this issue!

Best,
Tom

 

[vitanola]

And then when the government confiscated all the guns, the crime rate skyrocketed and the murder rate went up 42%. Why? Because all the lowlife criminals who don't give a rat's posterior about obeying the law knew for a fact that all the decent law abiding folks were disarmed and helpless. Open season on the general public by criminal scum.

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

You are quoting a well known internet hoax. Please peddle lies elsewhere.

According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, the homocide RATE has actually fallen since the gun buy-back program in 1997. The statistic which you cite is designed to be misleading, for it covers only a single year, in a single province (Tasmania) in which a single mass shooting skewed the figures for one year.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090417100922/http://aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi003.html

Crime rate skyrocketed? Per the Australian Bureau of Statistics, the crime rate has been steady to dropping, and gun crimes have fallen significantly, for example the proportion of armed robberies involving firearms has dropped from 27.8% in 1995 to 23.5 in 1996, 24.1 in 1997, 17.6% in 1998, 15.2% in 1999, and 14% in 2000.

http://www.abs.gov.au/

The effects of the changes to Austraila's gun ownership policy are complex, and cannot easily be described in a few statistics suitable for discussion by simpletons. At any rate, the information would, I think, have precious little application to the vastly different situation here in the United States, where, as has been pointed out, gun ownership is enshrined in our constitution, and in large parts of the country gun ownership is ingrained in the culture. Gun possession was always relatively limited in the Antipodes, and the buy-back program greatly decreased the number available for crime. Here in the 'States, we have more guns than citizens. The programs instituted in AU in the 1990's would fail dismilally here, I think.

Note that I am personally something of a Second Amendment absolutist. I believe that the right to bear arms is so firmly enshrined in our culture that it is unnecessary and counterproductive to lie about it. I part with some other Second Amendment supporters, however, in my insistence on the primacy of the ENTIRE Bill of Rights, not merely one of its ten parts.

 

[hatophile]

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12907511-lessons-learned-aid-aurora-response-but-were-warning-signs-unheeded?lite

This is a great article that points out the difficulty of finding any concrete solutions to these mass killings.

 

[Undertow]

Then there's some of us that are apparently a little too out-of-touch, who think that a government has no business getting too involved in what people own. But I already know I'm kinda nuts.

I've always been really interested in the mechanical aspect of firearms; so I like to take them apart, clean them, look at all the little pieces, etc. I guess I should have been a watchmaker. I'm also one of "those" people that likes to be prepared in case I have to hunt for my food. As totally awesome as I may be, it's tough jumping out of a tree with a kitchen knife and managing to take down your prey. lol

But I realize that is a naive approach to things. Obviously not everyone has good intentions, and a firearm is a great tool for them to reek havoc. Although, a claw hammer in the right hands can be bad eggs, too...

 

[AmateisGal]

The bottom line is this: you can't control crazy.

 

[sheeplady]

You may have a point there. My niece recently married a lovely young man from St. Louis, Missouri. He was telling his father how safe it was to walk alone in the streets here in Australia, his father was very concerned that he was becoming complacent and told him to be very careful. Apparently in St Louis many people are afraid to go into the street alone and congregate in groups to walk down the street, these are complete strangers they walk with, safety in numbers is the key.

His parents came out for the wedding and travelled to Sydney, our largest city. Garrett and his father were walking in the city at 11 o'clock at night, and his father couldn't believe how safe he felt. They could see a lot of people out and about yet still wasn't worried.

I don't want to sound like we don't have crime here, of course we do; it's just that one is much less likely to be killed.

This is exactly what I was talking about- it's a culture of fear which I think is somewhat justified by those that are in fear (and definitely justified for those who live in these environments). When I travel to most other developed countries (mainly in western Europe and Canada is where I have been), I feel much safer as a complete stranger in a place I know little about than I do in the downtown of my on city. I knew the worse that would likely happen in those places (if I was careful within reason) is getting mugged, but I wouldn't likely be killed or beaten within the realm of dying; and if I was, it would be a totally random event. I honestly don't know that violent crime rates are that much different (I know in some of those countries they are much lower) but it feels different.

I feel much safer riding a bus I have never ridden before, getting off someplace I have never seen, in a place where I don't speak the native language well, than I do transferring off a bus in my home city. Now, it could be that it is our media's fault- every major beating, violent mugging, stabbing, and shooting in my community is splashed all over the front page of the newspaper. (Quite honestly, I think it should be, because someone almost died or did die and society deserves to know.) But I've also witnessed these events while riding the bus in my own community (thankfully I've never seen someone actually gotten stabbed or shot, but I have seen knives displayed in fights).

Just last night we had a woman abducted at gunpoint outside of a local grocery store. It is not seen as a random event by the people in my community- it's seen within the context of the deadly shooting 3 days ago of a young teen, and a reported shots fired the day before.

 

[jamespowers]

Let me clarify: I said we do not have higher crime rates than America despite not allowing guns. But then our society is very different from yours (meaning the issue is more complicated than gun laws).

Hmmmmm....
"The crime rate in Sweden is high compared to other industrialized countries. An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Sweden. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Sweden will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2001 was 10.01 per 100,000 population for Sweden, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.61 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2001 was 23.39 for Sweden, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 31.77 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2001 was 95.83 for Sweden, 4.08 for Japan, and 148.50 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2001 was 667.42 for Sweden, 23.78 for Japan, and 318.55 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2001 was 1323.90 for Sweden, 233.60 for Japan, and 740.80 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2001 was 6988.81 for Sweden, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2484.64 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2001 was 495.21 for Sweden, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 430.64 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 9604.57 for Sweden, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4160.51 for USA. (Note that Japan data are for year 2000) "

 

[LizzieMaine]

Just last night we had a woman abducted at gunpoint outside of a local grocery store. It is not seen as a random event by the people in my community- it's seen within the context of the deadly shooting 3 days ago of a young teen, and a reported shots fired the day before.

It's one thing to look at crime as an abstraction, to look at charts and say "well, crime is on the decline according to these statistics, so obviously things are getting better, not worse." But when you walk out of the library after looking up those charts and find that someone has broken into your car and rifled the glove compartment looking for drugs (a crime we don't even bother to report any more, it happens so often) you kind of look at things a little differently.

 

[jamespowers]

The bottom line is this: you can't control crazy.

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[sheeplady]

It's one thing to look at crime as an abstraction, to look at charts and say "well, crime is on the decline according to these statistics, so obviously things are getting better, not worse." But when you walk out of the library after looking up those charts and find that someone has broken into your car and rifled the glove compartment looking for drugs (a crime we don't even bother to report any more, it happens so often) you kind of look at things a little differently.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Like you, I wouldn't own a handgun unless I felt really threatened. I really don't like handguns personally- that is a personal hangup of mine. (I am very familiar with handguns, and despite training for half a year on how to use them, they still weird me out. I'm just not a handgun owner. Shotguns and rifles are fine. It's not logical, but I've accepted it.) Thankfully I don't feel threatened yet, but my husband and I have considered getting something. It would be one thing if they stole your stuff when you weren't there (that's bad enough) but it's the home invasions where they rope you up and do whatever the heck they want with you that I'm worried about. And those are on the rise here.

 

[vitanola]

Hmmmmm....
"The crime rate in Sweden is high compared to other industrialized countries. An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Sweden. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Sweden will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2001 was 10.01 per 100,000 population for Sweden, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.61 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2001 was 23.39 for Sweden, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 31.77 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2001 was 95.83 for Sweden, 4.08 for Japan, and 148.50 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2001 was 667.42 for Sweden, 23.78 for Japan, and 318.55 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2001 was 1323.90 for Sweden, 233.60 for Japan, and 740.80 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2001 was 6988.81 for Sweden, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2484.64 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2001 was 495.21 for Sweden, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 430.64 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 9604.57 for Sweden, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4160.51 for USA. (Note that Japan data are for year 2000) "[/QUOTE

You are truly a master of the selective quotation, sir!

Dr. Winslow's article continues: "The data reported to INTERPOL make it appear that Sweden is perhaps the most crime ridden country in the world; however, these findings should be tempered by comparison with data reported to the United Nations. In the UN reports, murders are referred to as "intentional homicides." Aggravated assaults are referred to as "major assaults," and larcenies are referred to as "thefts." According to the United Nations Sixth Annual Survey on Crime, crime recorded in police statistics shows the crime rate for the combined total of all Index crimes in Sweden to be 6981.48, per 100,000 inhabitants in 1997... It should be observed that the above data reveal that comparatively speaking, Sweden has a low crime rate in regard to murder and major assault, a medium crime rate in regard to rape and robbery, and an exceedingly high rate in regard to property crimes (burglary, larceny, and auto theft). The discrepancies between the data reported to the United Nations for 1997 and those reported to INTERPOL for 2001 are partly explained by Sweden’s peculiar method of reporting murder and assault. Murders reported to INTERPOL included both attempted and completed acts of murder, while "major assaults" included both simple and aggravated assaults. These statistical anomalies for Sweden actually obscure the actual low to moderate rate of the most serious crimes (murder, aggravated assault, rape, and robbery)"

Not quite the what you wanted your readers to infer, is it?

For those who wish to see the articles for themselves, the report on Sweden may be found at:http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/sweden.html

The entire report on comparative criminology may be found at:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/index.html

The site is quite interesting, and really beautifully researched.

 

[jamespowers]

Hmmmmm....
"The crime rate in Sweden is high compared to other industrialized countries. An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Sweden. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Sweden will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2001 was 10.01 per 100,000 population for Sweden, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.61 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2001 was 23.39 for Sweden, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 31.77 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2001 was 95.83 for Sweden, 4.08 for Japan, and 148.50 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2001 was 667.42 for Sweden, 23.78 for Japan, and 318.55 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2001 was 1323.90 for Sweden, 233.60 for Japan, and 740.80 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2001 was 6988.81 for Sweden, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2484.64 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2001 was 495.21 for Sweden, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 430.64 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 9604.57 for Sweden, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4160.51 for USA. (Note that Japan data are for year 2000) "[/QUOTE

You are truly a master of the selective quotation, sir!

Dr. Winslow's article continues: "The data reported to INTERPOL make it appear that Sweden is perhaps the most crime ridden country in the world; however, these findings should be tempered by comparison with data reported to the United Nations. In the UN reports, murders are referred to as "intentional homicides." Aggravated assaults are referred to as "major assaults," and larcenies are referred to as "thefts." According to the United Nations Sixth Annual Survey on Crime, crime recorded in police statistics shows the crime rate for the combined total of all Index crimes in Sweden to be 6981.48, per 100,000 inhabitants in 1997... It should be observed that the above data reveal that comparatively speaking, Sweden has a low crime rate in regard to murder and major assault, a medium crime rate in regard to rape and robbery, and an exceedingly high rate in regard to property crimes (burglary, larceny, and auto theft). The discrepancies between the data reported to the United Nations for 1997 and those reported to INTERPOL for 2001 are partly explained by Sweden’s peculiar method of reporting murder and assault. Murders reported to INTERPOL included both attempted and completed acts of murder, while "major assaults" included both simple and aggravated assaults. These statistical anomalies for Sweden actually obscure the actual low to moderate rate of the most serious crimes (murder, aggravated assault, rape, and robbery)"

Not quite the what you wanted your readers to infer, is it?

For those who wish to see the articles for themselves, the report on Sweden may be found at:http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/sweden.html

The entire report on comparative criminology may be found at:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/index.html

The site is quite interesting, and really beautifully researched.

It still states that crime in all categories is not lower there than it is here now does it?
I also distrust UN figures because they rely simply on what is given to them rather than what is researched. I'll take INTERPOL figures over those of the UN thank you.

 

[Flicka]

Hmmmmm....
"The crime rate in Sweden is high compared to other industrialized countries. An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Sweden. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Sweden will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2001 was 10.01 per 100,000 population for Sweden, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.61 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2001 was 23.39 for Sweden, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 31.77 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2001 was 95.83 for Sweden, 4.08 for Japan, and 148.50 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2001 was 667.42 for Sweden, 23.78 for Japan, and 318.55 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2001 was 1323.90 for Sweden, 233.60 for Japan, and 740.80 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2001 was 6988.81 for Sweden, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2484.64 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2001 was 495.21 for Sweden, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 430.64 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 9604.57 for Sweden, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4160.51 for USA. (Note that Japan data are for year 2000) "

I could counter that with a load of statistics showing the absolute opposite, of course, but more to the point - if you think you are right, why do you people all talk about not being able to move around outside? American seem to live in perpetual fear while people here never worry. We go home late at night on the subway, no worries. My apartment building isn't even locked (very common here) and we never had anyone in here who doesn't belong. I never heard of anyone who had their clothes stolen from the laundry room, never knew anyone personally who was robbed (but of course I met them professionally), have never been offered drugs, never personally witnessed violence, don't know anyone who was burgled...

If this place is more dangerous than America, then you guys frankly need to man up and stop whining because that's just pathetic.

ETA: Thank Vitanola because he just made you look a little less ridiculously paranoid...

 

[jamespowers]

I could counter that with a load of statistics showing the absolute opposite, of course, but more to the point - if you think you are right, why do you people all talk about not being able to move around outside? American seem to live in perpetual fear while people here never worry. We go home late at night on the subway, no worries. My apartment building isn't even locked (very common here) and we never had anyone in here who doesn't belong. I never heard of anyone who had their clothes stolen from the laundry room, never knew anyone personally who was robbed (but of course I met them professionally), have never been offered drugs, never personally witnessed violence, don't know anyone who was burgled...

If this place is more dangerous than America, then you guys frankly need to man up and stop whining because that's just pathetic.

I have never whined about anything. My experience here is the same as yours. I don't live in fear or any such thing. If I lived in an area such as that I would move.

 

[Flicka]

I have never whined about anything. My experience here is the same as yours. I don't live in fear or any such thing. If I lived in an area such as that I would move.

And if I lived in a country where I felt I needed a gun to protect myself, I would emigrate.