The freaking X Beaver

[Luisiana Jones]

hi there guys, sometime ago i read about that the quality and amount in % of beaver in a hat was measured in something about an x, i read this in indygear but really didnt get to understand it, i also read that it no longer means anything, so if i get asked about the x in my AB what should i say i mean 100x or what?

Thanks a lot guys, hope to get some answers on this topic
Have a nice summer and regards from Spain

Ps. I posted this instead of indygear as i thought it would be a more appropiate topic for this forum

 

[Luisiana Jones]

lol Thanks for such a clear answer

 

[jamespowers]

They do mean very little but you can call your AB 1000X if you like.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Luisiana Jones]

lol, I didnt call it anything cuz it might feel offended but if u say so

 

[Feraud]

Did it ever mean anything? I have seen cowboy hat advertisements that tout the 100XX, etc. descriptions. I was never able to figure out any difference.
Are there quality differences in 100% beaver? Maybe depending on what part of the beaver the fur is taken from?

 

[Panamabob]

When you get down to the basics there are only a few body suppliers in the world. It is more than likely that Winchester is the supplier for evermost we know in the states. Get a hold of Winchester in Tennessee. You also hear of Czech hats, Argentine hats, and Portugal hats.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The X never really meant anything. within a company a higher number of X's may have meant that the hat was of a higher quality, though from one hatter to another there was never a standard. Some companies used it like a suggested where a 10 x hat would cost 10 dollars. If you see a hatter today using X's as a sign of measurement, just remember that the ruler they are using to measure quality is made of elastic.

You also cannot go by All Beaver as a sign of better quality as beaver fur quality varies sam as hare quality, so you can have blends that are better than all beaver hats as well as all hare hats that are better than blends. The real test of the quality of a hat is the test of time.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Panama Bob raises an interesting point...

If the worlds hat bodies are supplied by only a few felters, is the quality of modern hats really different from one maker to another?

We know that Hatco is making hats for the big names, ie. Stetson, Resistol, Baily(?), etc... I think, but I don't really know for sure, Biltmore felts their own bodies. It may be safe to say that the big names are getting their bodies from Winchester. If you get a custom hat your not getting a body from Winchester? Custom makers have secret felters? Does Art and Steve get their bodies from Winchester. I know that the Camptown hats are coming out of a place in NJ, btw I've got one on order. Just some thoughts and questions.

 

[mthatter]

erased by mt

 

[Michaelson]

LJ, this was exactly the same explaination that was given when this was asked at Indygear. What has been said here that now makes it more understandable for you? [huh] Regards! Michaelson

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Ok...Is Hatco's quality better than Winchester's or vice versa? I have a couple of late model Stetson Western hats, and a couple ofAmerican Hat Co Western hats. While I'm no expert, fit and finish appear to be adequate, if not exelent on all specimens. I wore a Stratton Troopers Hat when I was a police officer and it really appears that there was no difference between the three (Stetson, American, and Stratton). I'm assuming that American and Stetson are made from the same bodies, and both are labled 5X. All these are very stiff and have been through very inclement weather, soaking downpours, heat, dust, etc..., and appear to be in great condition (after drying and brushing). I have heard that Stetson quality is not what it used to be, but these hats are beautiful. They are waterproof and have kept their shape over several years. They are still as black as the day I bought them, well the Stratton is blue as the day I was issued it. I don't own a Stetson Fedora, but had considered buying one in the past, but changed my mind because of some of the posts here on the Lounge. I have looked (at Miller about 20 minutes from my house)at the late model fedora offerings by Stetson, and they look rather good to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is this...Why buy Custom, if the custom makers are getting their bodies from the same suppliers that the big companies get theirs? I understand that there are different grades of felt and finishes and so forth, but what is the real difference? The modern Stetson's have great sweat bands, and they fit and feel good on my head. What's the diff?

 

[ScottFree]

Biltmore Bob, I have similar concerns. There is a parallel topic on another forum that is talking to the same gentleman LJ, about this matter. While there is a lot of disagreement about it all there seems to be some common ground on it. Be aware if you visit the other forum, the language is considerably more harsh and the disagreement is not very friendly.

Cheers

Scott

 

[Biltmore Bob]

This is the only hat related forum that I visit. I know of the forum of which you speak, but I have not ever visited it, nor am a member. I like it just fine here.

 

[ScottFree]

From what I see you may have made a wise choice. ( and maybe not, each to his own, I assume) They may have some knowledgeable hat people but its some kind of a mad house in such tension filled discussions.

Cheers

Scott

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Well I let temptation get the better of me...

I visited that site and logged in and everything, you know, just to see, and all, right? What a big waste of time. I was dished up a great big steaming plate of self serving crap. Serves me right, right? Didn't learn anything either.

I like it here just fine thank you...

 

[ScottFree]

Hi Bob, this certainly seems to be a much more gentlemanly forum. The gentleman running that forum, Rick5150, seems to be a very genuine guy. Some of the others seem less polished. This really appears to be a wonderful group of guys. While I have not participated in the other forum very much and do not expect to do so, it seems that the only advantage it has is possibly some really bare bones old time hatters with knowledge I have not seen any place else. I think its some shame that they cannot polish the old apple up some and act civilized as well and maybe there would be another great forum for hats. I have registered at the some other hat forums as they provide links to them but the link they provided to this one seems to have paid off most for me.

I just found this private message feature as some one sent me a message. Its a very nice feature.

Cheers

Scott

 

[Art Fawcett]

Welcome to the Lounge Scott, LJ and MTHatter!!
Gents, MT has it right on with felters. I have tried most he mentioned and by far the service and knowledge offered at Winchester plus the felt they produce makes them the winner in my eyes. Although I will always try new felters as I can find them I prefer Winchester over any other.

"Why buy Custom, if the custom makers are getting their bodies from the same suppliers that the big companies get theirs? I understand that there are different grades of felt and finishes and so forth, but what is the real difference? The modern Stetson's have great sweat bands, and they fit and feel good on my head. What's the diff?"

Well BB, hopefully it's about the custom fit, the attention to detail by ONE person, not a factory full. It should also be about the personal touch and service. Now mind you, these are goals and not absolutes, but doesn't it make you feel more confortable asking questions of the person who actually made your hat? You also know who to blame if it doesn't come out the way you want.))

 

[jamespowers]

I am not sure where you have come in contact with Stetson hats but my last contact was undesirable at best. The hat in question was a black fedora shape with a center dent and two forward dents. It belongs to a friend of mine---thank God.
He owned it for a year and the black faded. The felt was as coarse as a porcupine---not a beaver for sure. It was also thin and not dense at all. The crown even tapered after just one year of wear! It was made by Stetson recently so I know they make stuff like this.
I doubt Stetson uses Winchester bodies. I think they make their own. I have seen Winchester bodies and I have seen this Stetson. Either that was the cheapest, ugliest and bottom of the barrel body that Winchester makes---one that I have never seen---or Stetson managed to throw that together itself or through one of its other suppliers.
I think that is what makes a custom hatter your best friend really. You can decide what grade of felt you want. It can be 100% beaver, a blend or rabbit/hare. It makes a difference in the price you pay for the finished hat. You can even choose from the bare bodies if you want to feel the felt first.
Stetson and other off the shelf brands are a crap shoot. You have no idea what the bodies are made of when you get it---especially the lower end models. They will say a blend but you have no idea what the blend is. It could be 80 hare and 20% beaver and they are charging you $300 or more for it.
Another benefit of a custom hatter is that you choose what it looks like. You choose the color of the body, the ribbon, and the grade of felt. The hat is completely unique to you. Even the size is made to fit your head not the "average head." If that were the case, I would hardly ever find a 7 1/2 extra long oval. :kick: The off the shelf hat looks like every other off the shelf hat in the same color and model. I suppose I am picky because I like different color ribbons and bows. I even like a wide bound edge in a complementary color. When I get a custom hat it says me all over it not just grabbed off a shelf.
This is just for comparison though. Wear what you like and what you think looks good on you. I just thought I would bring a few things to mind that a custom hatter can do for you. One word of caution though---once you try it you will never look at a hat the same way again.

Regards to all,

J

 

[mthatter]

erased by mt

 

[fedoralover]

Also if I might add to what has already been said, an average off the shelf stetson dress fedora will probably run around 80 to 120 dollars. I've seen these new hats and I'm amazed at the poor stitching and felt quality. I have vintage stetsons that were also off the shelf 50 to 60 years ago and there is no comparison. The old beats the new any day of the week. The only way to get the quality of the old nowadays is to get a custom.

And you are right Bob, all these companies have different grades of felt because the average off the street guy who walks into a hat store and has been used to wearing ball caps that cost him $16.00 or less and now sees a hat selling for 80 to 120 dollars, well he thinks thats a mighty hefty sum for a hat.

Simply put, nowadays the average guy will not pay what a good quality hat costs. So they make the cheapys for those folks and for them going from $16.00 to $100 for a hat is a tremendous step up and they think they are really uptown.
But a custom hatter most generally is going to be dealing with someone who understands what a good quality hat is really worth and is willing to pay for it. So the same company that makes the cheapys for the average Joe also makes the quality bodies for people who will appreciate it and are willing to pay for it.

I just saw some new Borsalinos in Portland that cost $245.00 and the felt and the stitching were absolutely terrible. The $400 all beaver Borsalino was a little better but again a custom hatter can make you one of better quality for less money and will be done to your specifications.

fedoralover