The Dark Knight (2008)

[flat-top]

At last, a Batman movie project that finally does the franchise justice. Batman Begins was so good and I like what I've have seen of the next movie's Joker. Don't get me wrong, I thought Jack Nicholson was genius with his portrayal of the classic TV & movie interpretation of the Joker we grew up with. But with this new version? No more campy, cartoon villian -- this guy looks scary!!

It's a long wait for the sequel of a movie that came out in 2005 but it looks like it'll be worth it.

If they are using "The Killing Joke" graphic novel as inspiration (I've read that they are), then this will be a scary and truly insane Joker that has not yet been portrayed in the movies or on TV!

 

[Doctor Strange]

Well, that's no surprise. The Killing Joke's influence is huge, and has already been felt for a while.

The Killing Joke may not have been adapted directly, but it was clearly a major inspiration to both the 1989 movie and the subsequent Animated Series in their writing for the Joker. Basically, every adapted version of the Joker can be broken down to either pre-Killing Joke (goofier and funnier) and post-Killing Joke (much darker and scarier)!

Truly, one of the all-time great Bat stories...

 

[Lancealot]

I'm hoping that that will be the third of the new films - the Harley story arc, from her arrvial to her murder would be a superb film in and of itself.

I believe I heard Joker in this one to be followed up with Two-Face who will be created by the Joker.

 

[Edward]

I liked Cesar Romero in the 60s, and Jack Nicolson in the 80s, but...

I'm one of those folks who believes that Mark Hamill's vocal performance as the Joker in Batman: The Animated Series (*) and its followup cartoon series is the DEFINITIVE take on the character. Heath Ledger is a good actor and a good choice for a contemporary blockbuster movie (my 14-year-old daughter is nuts over him), but he's gonna have to really work to impress me!

( * Hey, I liked Batman Begins a lot, I own the DVD, etc. But I still think that the early 1990s B:TAS cartoons tower over every other adaptation of Batman, merging all the different approaches to the character into 85 half-hours of deco-drenched goodness! The design work, scripts [let us not forget that Paul Dini created Harley Quinn in this series!], music, and vocal performances are uniformly brilliant... And note that I'm not ranting about these like somebody who saw them as an impressionable kid: I was in my late 30s when the series first ran. And having revisited it in detail it since I got the DVDs, I am, if anything, MORE impressed with it!)

I liked the 60s stuff as a young kid when I hadn't seen any other Batman (save for an animated show at the tail end of the 70s / 80-81 time, with some little Bat-version of Godzuki.... BatMite?) .... then I got a bit older and it actually put me off of the character for a long time - until I saw some real Batman. Romero wasn't a bad Joker within the parameters of the show, but the show did place limitations. His failure to shave off the 'tache before they put the make up on still really annoys me every time I see him...

I agree with you absolutely about Batman the Animated Series - why coulsn't we have had more of that instead of the awful "The Batman"? Sigh. It was truly amazing - as you say, it had all the Deco looks spot on ,and for something that was typically marketed as a kids' thing, it had amazing depth and certainly did not shy away from the adult themes involved in the Bat universe. And yes, I agree that Mark Hamill hit the nail on the head with the Joker. They did have an advantage there of course that with animation you can replicate the comic book look perfectly without limitations, but I definitely think that was the best one. It was that and the Killing joke Joker I had in mind when I put my costume together, even though I ended up due to practicalities and budget gonig with a jacket/ trouser look that is more in line with an eariler Joker. Bataman Begins came as close to hitting it right as I think it's possible with live action. I loved the two Burton outings with Batman (the following two were abysmyl), but they weren't quite there.

If they are using "The Killing Joke" graphic novel as inspiration (I've read that they are), then this will be a scary and truly insane Joker that has not yet been portrayed in the movies or on TV!

I've been saying for years they should just take it and turn it into a film. Ledger has confirmed in interviews that he was given the Killing Joke to read as part of his preparation for the role, so we'll see. I'd expect that they will give the Joker an origin story - I hope they go with this one and not the one that they had in the 89 film. Which was okay, but to my mind took away much of what makes the Joker such a great character. There's the tragedy of what happened to him, the fact he's not so much evil as insane.... and I'm totally in love with the concept of "All it takes is one bad day to make a normal man go insane." So much more depth than mob heavy who has accident and becomes bigger villain.

The title intrigues me too - wasn't there another book called The Dark Knight, or Dark Knight Returns? That might offer some plot insight too. Obviously, there will be some additional in this one because they have to introduce the Joker s a villain who is already at large - maybe we'll then get elements of Killing Joke style flash back to the origin. The still of him threatening Gordon's daughter suggests a Killing Joke plot link too...

The Killing Joke may not have been adapted directly, but it was clearly a major inspiration to both the 1989 movie and the subsequent Animated Series in their writing for the Joker. Basically, every adapted version of the Joker can be broken down to either pre-Killing Joke (goofier and funnier) and post-Killing Joke (much darker and scarier)!

Truly, one of the all-time great Bat stories...

I had the impression - though i think i got it from Wikipaedia, I'm no expert in the early stuff - that The Joker started off as a very murderous chracter, then was softened to more playful for some years before coming back later on as more sinister....

I can't see them doing more than three Batman films this time, though maybe if they're successful.... I would love to see them do a fourth, or even a spin-off based on the Joker and Harley. I wonder who the next villain they'll take up for the new series will be? The Penguin again? I just hope they don't make the mistake of having too many villains in one film. The last two of the 90s Bat films did that, as I heard (not seen it yet though) did Spiderman III. I prefer sticking to one and allowing the room for the chracter to really develop.

 

[Edward]

I believe I heard Joker in this one to be followed up with Two-Face who will be created by the Joker.

That would be interesting - end sequence could be Dent climbing out of the chemicals, or showing his scarred side for the first time and flicking a coin.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Like everything in the Batman mythos, the Joker was indeed "softened up" in the 1950s in response to the Wertham comic book jihad - although even his original 1940s appearances were typically more for laughs than his character of today. (Batman himself was hardly the dark avenger of the knight in the late 50s/early 60s, but more like a benign scoutmaster who walked around in broad daylight and was frequently transformed into aliens, genies, mermen, etc. And don't forget the addition of Batwoman and Batgirl for double-dating possibilities, to quell Wertham's allegations that Bruce and Dick's lifestyle was an "idealized homosexual dream"!)

After this, came the TV show-induced high camp period, which was also very, very silly. Batman didn't get serious until Neil Adams and Denny O'Neil thorougly revamped the book in the early 70s, returning Batman to his "lone wolf stalking the rooftops after dark" persona. They started to toughen up the Joker (who would, after all, kill the second Robin a few years later), but it wasn't until the mid-80s with the publication of The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke that he got REALLY nasty. And this was reflected in the 1989 film and B:TAS...

 

[Doh!]

Not much more to add to this, but I'm with you guys 100% that The Animated Series was the best, most faithful adaptation of the comics to date.

However, I am very much looking forward to the new film.

 

[DW Evans]

Agreed! Amazon just recently had a price cut of the B:TAS series from $140 to $90. If anyone hasn't added it to their collection I highly suggest you do. It's a milestone in more ways than one.


During Comic Con, an alternate reality game took place requiring the participants to solve various riddles that the Joker left them. It began when a plane wrote a number in the sky. Calling the number, one could hear the coerced cooperation of a hostage reading from a piece of paper. The riddle: How many clowns does it take to get a laugh? ... 401. And then it went silent.

Long story short, dollar bills that had been 'Jokerized' found their way into circulation without many even noticing. The eyes had been encircled by black and the lips covered in red. Accompanying the vandalism was the question: Why So Serious? This, of course, turned out to be a web-site. Ultimately, the winner would get to see the trailer. Well, let's just say that the winner got more than he bargained for... He had been 'Jokerized' and "murdered" thus allowing the Joker to escape cleanly. There was even a Gotham City PD report about it with images showing the slain male.

If ya'll will recall, at the end of Batman Begins Gordon mentioned that The Joker had already committed double homicide. Assuming that the person on the phone was killed, and is also another individual apart from the 'winner,' then one could presume that those were the victims.

The site has now changed to being a location where you can apparently Rent-A-Clown. If you view the source code, you will find lines that read HaHaHaHa. Within these random lines, an anomally can be found in each that sums up to read: Made You Look.

And remember How many clowns does it take to get a laugh? 401. Apparently, someone dialed the number followed by 401 and was asked to leave a message. Maybe it takes 401 messages? Nonetheless, there are not 401 clowns on the new site, only 139. So maybe there are more to be added and when the quota is reached things will change? Who knows... at this moment, we amateur detectives are waiting to see what The Joker will do next.


The Dark Knight teaser trailer, for those that haven't seen it, was released a week or so ago. It's been playing in front of The Simpsons movie at select theatres across the US. In it, there is not footage from the film (it is a teaser afterall) but there is narrative and you get to hear the Joker. Personally, I am very impressed! Just click on the MySpace link in my sig below to view it.


I also recommend the Batman: Black and White series. It's a collection of one-off stories, in graphic novel form, from well known artists of the industry portraying Batman in more subtle, noirish tales in nothing but black and white pages.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I have (the first volume of) the Batman Black And White TPB too, and I find it a mixed bag. Some of the stories are good, some of the art is good, but some of it simply doesn't work. Two things stand out after not having looked at it for a couple of years: The story that includes a zeppelin docking scene which is eeriely predictive of the opening sequence in SKY CAPTAIN (which came out several years later). And the brief Dini/Timm Two-Face story in B:TAS style that's a tribute to Hitchcock's VERTIGO with stronger sexual content than they could ever do in a TV cartoon - it's bloody brilliant!

I just looked at Amazon, and wow, it's $95 for the whole B:TAS series... and that includes Volume 4, the restyled New Batman Adventures episodes (which are really a separate animal from the first series and are much more hit-and-miss, though they include a handful of bona fide masterpieces, like Mad Love [Harley's origin] and Over The Edge [Batgirl's fall]). Let me second the recommendation: getting this incredible series for under $100 - less than a dollar an episode! - is an ASTOUNDING bargain! Batfans who don't have it should definitely pounce!

 

[griffer]

I thought 401 was html code reference- a hint to point a browser to whysoserious.com

 

[Doh!]

You guys are pretty good salesmen -- I only have a 4-episode compilation disk of BTAS so at $90 for the entire shebang, I'd be crazy NOT to order!

Thanks

 

[DW Evans]

...Batman Black And White TPB ...I find [to be] a mixed bag. Some of the stories are good, some of the art is good, but some of it simply doesn't work...

I totally concur. The tales and artwork that provide the nostalgic feel are the ones I enjoy most. I've read the first two volumes and just purchased the third (and final) volume in hardcover format (the only one I own thus far). Some stories work better than others but more-so I feel that the artwork has a lot to do with whether or not it pleases me. To clarify, the reason I single out the artwork is because all of the stories, so far, tend to hold up pretty well; whereas, some of the art styles don't appeal to me so much, and so tend to take me out of the eras that I prefer.

But the reason I highly enjoy the Black And White series as much as I do is because I'm more into the Batman that is trying to make a difference in Gotham (detective, crime fighter) over the Batman (save-the-world) superhero. When the character is required to save the world, each event must be major, and more climactic, than the one before it (therefore more fantastic gadgets, hardware, and twists). As a result, it's more a game of gimmicks rather than actually skilled writing and artistic talent. This, in my opinion, causes a lot of distance from the reader in terms of the bigger reasons for why Batman is so popular in the first place. Besides, I'd much rather have the smaller world stories because they make various events that much more personal to Batman and in turn, the reader.

Whether the above explanation made any sense at all, I'm not too sure. And if not, I apologize. Basically, I enjoy the Batman that's portrayed as he was meant to be: a crime fighting detective trying to rid his city of the evil that so plagues it and its people; with the accompanying, respective style accordingly. Which is why, if you prefer the Batman in the same sense as I, you can't go wrong with the B:TAS collection; especially if you like the style of the Fleischer Superman cartoons. :eusa_clap


A shot from Batman The Animated Series:

Some stills from The Dark Knight:

The more streamlined Batsuit.

The Batpod!

The Joker in disguise.​

 

[thunderw21]

Loved Batman Begins, looking forward to this one. Thanks for the pics, the last one of the Joker is haunting, definitely different from past movies and what one might expect from the Joker. I love how dark these movies are.

I watched B:TAS as a kid whenever it was on TV. I still have fond memories of coming home after school and watching Batman fight the bad guys. The Dr. Freeze episode is my favorite: dark and tragic, yet justice is dealt. A very serious but entertaining show, much better than the junk cartoons on TV today.
Billy

 

[DW Evans]

Thanks for the pics... The Dr. Freeze episode is my favorite...
Billy

Sure, anytime! And I believe the episode you're referring to is called "Heart Of Ice." It's one of my favorites, as well. And, if I recall correctly, it won an Emmy for oustanding writing.


In more TDK news, I saw some amatuer footage shot in-between filming showing Heath in full Joker regalia. I must say, his movements and mannerisms just scream Joker; he was swinging around a pocket watch (or keys on a string, perhaps?) and goofing with a crew member, who was getting into a car, then quickly stood at attention and tapped his foot rapidly, as if he did nothing.

From what I've seen and read, in my humble opinion, this may very well be THE portrayal of The Joker every fan has been waiting for.


Some more official pics:

 

[Doctor Strange]

Very busy weekend, but squeezing in a couple of quick comments:

"Heart of Ice" was writer Paul Dini's first great moment in B:TAS, redefining a one-dimensional gimmick villain as a tragic antihero. (One of the earliest episodes to air, it immediately served notice that the show was something special.) The interesting thing is, Schumacher and Goldsman then used the B:TAS backstory for Freeze in the godawful "Batman and Robin" live-action feature and totally blew it with Ahnuld's less-than-one-dimensional portrayal!

I also vastly prefer Batman stories on a smaller, more human scale. My single biggest complaint with Batman Begins was that it gave in to the "we need a tremendous finale" syndrome with the whole thousands of hallucinating criminals and elevated train of doom thing: After the close focus on Bruce and his immediate circle during the first two acts, this came out of left field - they would have done better to just have Rachel and Alfred kidnapped by R'as Al Ghul. Suddenly turning into a standard action movie was a disappointment... And having Gordon drive the Batmobile was just so wrong!

So... I am not convinced about the direction of this second film. Aside from Ledger being a less than ideal choice for the Joker (Adiren Brody? Paul Bettany? MARK HAMILL?!?), the focus on all the new equipment disturbs me. How about making Bats a DETECTIVE?!?

 

[DW Evans]

I highly enjoyed Batman Begins, and consider it to be the best live action film adaptation thus far, but that's not to say it's flawless by any means. After first viewing it I was left with the feeling that something was missing. I then realized what it was...

Nolan explaining everything about Bruce Wayne and why he became Batman is great for those who are unfamiliar with the character and are needing to write a paper on the guy. But in my opinion, this approach ultimately humanized Batman so much so that much of the mystery was lost. I feel that had Nolan began the film with shots of Batman and then gave us backstory it would have been a bit more interesting and so much more powerful. Honestly, he could have spread Batman's origin over the span of the three films that he had signed-on to do (so I've heard), instead of all in the first hour or so, and still have explained everything just as effectively.

Personally, I feel that Batman is Bruce Wayne's alter-ego rather than vice versa. And in my opinion of the character, he is mentally disturbed to the degree of which he wakes up everyday so that he may quench his thirst for justice and all that jazz. He is obsessed with perfection, hence the various reasons for the physical and mental conditioning he had endured for so many years, and is looking for the ultimate challenge that shall stand between him and his long term goal. For this very reason, he wouldn't be wearing a full body-armored suit... that's too easy, you see? Like I said, Batman wants a challenge.

Of course, this all goes back to how most people have depicted Batman in the films: the superhero-save-the-world type rather than a detective. If depicted as the latter he most certainly would not need to be taking on three-dozen bad guys all at once and thus not need the Robocop-like body armor. Don't get me wrong, I like the new Batsuit in context with Nolan's vision of Batman's world; but the human race is adaptable which is why it has survived so long. As a result, the lack of full-blown body armor would have Batman, instead, certainly relying more on stealth, distraction and intimidation rather than technology alone. Afterall, Bruce Wayne is the facade, and rather than making Batman seem materialistic in value and thus just another person in a mask, attention should be taken away from the endless amounts of money he possesses. His gadgets are just there to make things a little easier on him, but they are expendable; merely after thoughts. Because, in the end, Batman himself is the weapon; his mind, his brawn, his legend... his city. He is just as deadly with his utility belt as he is without it. Which is why his presence alone scares the heck out of everyone.

Alas, it all comes down to the writers. They are what determine how Batman's going to look and whether or not his vulnerability is more character driven, or just for show. I mean, even petty criminals should have at least a grain-of-salt of a chance of defeating Batman, afterall he is somewhat mentally unstable and everyone has their off days. Heck, they're the reason for Batman's creation in the first place. This would remind everyone that Batman wasn't born great, he worked hard to become as such. And so too would it remind them of the vulnerability of the character; because people tend to forget about the influential factors of human emotion. Besides, all super villains start out small at one point or another right? So giving Batman a chance at plugging the leak at its source would be the proper thing to do.

As far as the sequel goes, now that the origin story is out of the way, I'm pretty sure that all of their focus will be on the more pyschological sides of the characters and how their personas can lead them down the wrong paths of which they had originally intended. It is called The Dark Knight, afterall. And from what I've heard, it will explore how the presence of Batman actually causes more problems than it solves: There is a mob war and, in desperation, they hire help outside of the organization to deal with The Caped Crusader. Of course, they get more than they bargained for as The Joker puts on a spectacular show for all to see. Whether or not this rumored plot will play out as such is something we will just have to wait and see. But they're certainly keeping quiet in that department. Either way, I think it's going to blow Batman Begins out of the water, or so I hope.

A shot from the fanfilm Batman: Dead End

Most people are against the more traditional look of Batman, in regards to a live action film.
But that's because of the environment the writers have dropped him into.
If portrayed as the detective that he is, he could easily pull off the look of the comics.​

 

[Pok 9'er]

Bat Suit

The suit in the first Batman movie was very traditional. It did offer protection but it was still very basic. For some reason I really like the Bat Symbol over the yellow field. It's like a flash point instantly drawing your attention.
Also, Batman is the true nature of Bruce Wayne. The anonymity of the mask always the hero to be his true self.

 

[Pok 9'er]

Anybody see the footage of the building implosion that will be in The Dark Knight. It will be interesting to compare that footage with how it looks post production.
Also, here's a cool image Batman fans should like.

 

[flat-top]

Has anyone checked out http://whysoserious.com/ lately?
Apparently something's suppossed to happen when the candle burns all the way down......

 

[Doh!]

I just noticed that the mouth of the pumpkin forms both a bat and the Joker's smile.