the cedar moth myth

[moontheloon]

I just spent the morning having breakfast with an old friend.
Chris is a practicing certified entomologist and and professor of insect ecology. He dedicates his life to the science of insects.

I was wearing a Borsalino hat and naturally he asked about it and we began discussing.
This brought me to the "mothing" issue so many have and I thought I would inquire considering his expertise.

what he told me was very interesting.

A few interesting points he shared with me

first of all there are 15,000 moth species and very few of them are cloth eating species.
I think he said there are 2 or 3 species that are cloth eaters.

Cedar does not repel moths.
it is the oil in the cedar that may sometimes ... not all the time slightly repel a moth but that oil is likely almost completely dissipated from any chips or balls that we would buy at the store and it completely dries out within a year of the tree being chopped down.

another note was that is it not moths that will nibble on our hats but their larvae which are small caterpillars that exist for roughly ten days.

unfortunately cedar or its oil will do nothing to repel this larvae.

The best way to prevent "mothing" ... which I guess should be called "larvaing" since it is not moths at all that eat our hats ... is to prevent the laying of eggs.

what he suggested was the best way to keep moth damage was to keep our hats in boxes with tightly closed lids and to keep those boxes in a room that is semi frequented by yourself or family.

Chris also suggested that during the spring and summer seasons we should brush our hats probably twice a month

to conclude ... there is nothing that is not a poisonous pesticide that will completely repel moths.

Cedar chips and balls etc. will not hurt but will not do nearly what most of us expect them to do as far as keeping moths from laying eggs near our hats.

I hope you found any of this even remotely interesting

it interested me for I was not aware of a lot of this information

he shared a lot more but I just cannot remember everything that took place in a 3 hour conversation.

I may ask him to write something up for me and post it here

 

[Frunobulax]

I just spent the morning having breakfast with an old friend.
Chris is a practicing certified entomologist and and professor of insect ecology. He dedicates his life to the science of insects.

I was wearing a Borsalino hat and naturally he asked about it and we began discussing.
This brought me to the "mothing" issue so many have and I thought I would inquire considering his expertise.

what he told me was very interesting.

A few interesting points he shared with me

first of all there are 15,000 moth species and very few of them are cloth eating species.
I think he said there are 2 or 3 species that are cloth eaters.

Cedar does not repel moths.
it is the oil in the cedar that may sometimes ... not all the time slightly repel a moth but that oil is likely almost completely dissipated from any chips or balls that we would buy at the store and it completely dries out within a year of the tree being chopped down.

another note was that is it not moths that will nibble on our hats but their larvae which are small caterpillars that exist for roughly ten days.

unfortunately cedar or its oil will do nothing to repel this larvae.

The best way to prevent "mothing" ... which I guess should be called "larvaing" since it is not moths at all that eat our hats ... is to prevent the laying of eggs.

what he suggested was the best way to keep moth damage was to keep our hats in boxes with tightly closed lids and to keep those boxes in a room that is semi frequented by yourself or family.

Chris also suggested that during the spring and summer seasons we should brush our hats probably twice a month

to conclude ... there is nothing that is not a poisonous pesticide that will completely repel moths.

Cedar chips and balls etc. will not hurt but will not do nearly what most of us expect them to do as far as keeping moths from laying eggs near our hats.

I hope you found any of this even remotely interesting

it interested me for I was not aware of a lot of this information

he shared a lot more but I just cannot remember everything that took place in a 3 hour conversation.

I may ask him to write something up for me and post it here

Cool, thanks, Ant! I knew about the larva part, not so much the rest. Please ask him, however, about distinguishing between "cloth" and "fur," as it has long been something that most who own fur coats have worried about. My mom had a full length fur coat she always kept in a zipped plastic hanging bag to prevent insect damage.

Again, cool!


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[moontheloon]

Cool, thanks, Ant! I knew about the larva part, not so much the rest. Please ask him, however, about distinguishing between "cloth" and "fur," as it has long been something that most who own fur coats have worried about. My mom had a full length fur coat she always kept in a zipped plastic hanging bag to prevent insect damage.

Again, cool!


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

he did say that what they are interested in is the fibers ... be it cloth or fur ... same moths

 

[Hurricane Jack]

he did say that what they are interested in is the fibers ... be it cloth or fur ... same moths

Who knew they need insoluble fiber in their diet? I thought it was the food particles, salt from perspiration etc from our hands that they needed.

 

[rogerstg]

I don't doubt a single word, but there must be something missing because wool and furs stored in a cedar closet or cedar chest seem to avoid insect damage. Items kept in drawers and normal closets seem to be prone to damage. Maybe it's a difference between "repel" and concealing the edible nature of the garment. Much like picaridin works on mosquitoes.

Interesting information though.

 

[moontheloon]

Who knew they need insoluble fiber in their diet? I thought it was the food particles, salt from perspiration etc from our hands that they needed.

That could very well be true
I'm basically grasping at pieces of the conversation
I should have written stuff down.
Aside from the facts in the original post I didn't retain a whole lot more to be honest


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[Redfokker]

I also wonder if there is a regional or nationwide component of this. East vs West, humid south vs northern? My mother used to use "moth balls" which may or may not have done anything either. Sounds like proper storage is our best defense. Really cool post Anthony, it should be a sticky.

 

[moontheloon]

I also wonder if there is a regional or nationwide component of this. East vs West, humid south vs northern? My mother used to use "moth balls" which may or may not have done anything either. Sounds like proper storage is our best defense. Really cool post Anthony, it should be a sticky.

I'm sure there are regional variables without a doubt as far as the species.
He did say moth balls do about as much to repel as cedar but will kill them if ingested


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[Hurricane Jack]

That could very well be true
I'm basically grasping at pieces of the conversation
I should have written stuff down.
Aside from the facts in the original post I didn't retail a whole lot more to be honest


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I was just funin'. It is true that cedar oil does dry out. You can buy cedar oil in small bottles to replenish wood with. Cedar lined trunks & closets can be lightly sanded. That's why I went to cedar shavings after using cedar blocks & the cedar donut rings at one time. The shavings are cheaper & easy to dispose of when they do dry out.

 

[alanfgag]

I remember a number of discussions here over the years - some included wonderful video of the larval nits hungrily devouring lunch. It was very compelling. The nits are tiny. I wonder if the fit of a hatbox is tight enough to discourage their entry to a fine vintage restaurant?

One common thread in the information is that moth nits like peace and quiet and darkness. Keeping hats out of boxes, in daylight, handling and rotating them frequently for brushing and wearing might be as good or better protection than trying to seal them in a dark container. There was also a contingent of members that kept newly acquired hats in a freezer to put a stop to any passengers that might have arrived with a new purchase. A freezer might be the best storage option, though for many here, not a large enough storeroom to be practical.

I expect some regions are more prone to moth damage than others. I'm not sure which climate factors stoke the appetite of baby moths. I have not had much trouble with them here... knock on cedar.

 

[Redfokker]

Those of us who only have 30 hats or so have an advantage of frequent handling. You guys with a hundred or more need to play with your hats more.

 

[moontheloon]

Those of us who only have 30 hats or so have an advantage of frequent handling. You guys with a hundred or more need to play with your hats more.

I definitely do a brushing rotation every month or so brushing probably 20 at a time.
Luckily I have not experienced any critters yet.


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[moontheloon]

I remember a number of discussions here over the years - some included wonderful video of the larval nits hungrily devouring lunch. It was very compelling. The nits are tiny. I wonder if the fit of a hatbox is tight enough to discourage their entry to a fine vintage restaurant?

One common thread in the information is that moth nits like peace and quiet and darkness. Keeping hats out of boxes, in daylight, handling and rotating them frequently for brushing and wearing might be as good or better protection than trying to seal them in a dark container. There was also a contingent of members that kept newly acquired hats in a freezer to put a stop to any passengers that might have arrived with a new purchase. A freezer might be the best storage option, though for many here, not a large enough storeroom to be practical.

I expect some regions are more prone to moth damage than others. I'm not sure which climate factors stoke the appetite of baby moths. I have not had much trouble with them here... knock on cedar.

I don't believe the larvae travel to eat.
From what it sounded like they feast where they hatch.
So if we can keep eggs from our hats we should be ok.
and I to have not had any problems thus far here in NJ ... and I do handle my hats pretty regularly


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[Willybob]

This is very interesting. So often we just accept something without getting the science behind it. I've always heard that eucalyptust repels moths. I have two big eucalyptus trees so I put fresh cuttings in my "hat" closet along with drops of eucalyptus oil. I always thought the moths were the ones snacking and didn't consider the larva aspect. Good info. It makes sense that if you keep the moths out, no larva. I have a bunch of moths fluttering around my porch lights this time of year. My cat does a fair job of reducing their population but I think I'm going to try an experiment with a burning citronella candle to see if citronella repels them.

 

[moontheloon]

I don't doubt a single word, but there must be something missing because wool and furs stored in a cedar closet or cedar chest seem to avoid insect damage. Items kept in drawers and normal closets seem to be prone to damage. Maybe it's a difference between "repel" and concealing the edible nature of the garment. Much like picaridin works on mosquitoes.

Interesting information though.

Unfortunately, the effectiveness of cedar chests in repelling clothes moths is overstated. Not that cedar doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work for very long, or very well. The heartwood of red cedar does contain volatile oils that will kill clothes moth larvae…when the oils are in high concentration. A relatively new, well-made cedar chest can protect from clothes moths for a while, as long as it is kept tightly closed and the items are not already infested when placed inside.
Studies have suggested that even a new cedar chest kills only small clothes moth larvae, not larger larvae, eggs, or pupae. If already-infested woolens were placed in a new cedar chest, the larvae could survive and the infestation could continue. Cedar oils also don’t repel adult clothes moths or other fabric pests such as carpet beetles.

In short

Brand new chest can be somewhat affective and old chests are useless beyond how tightly they are sealed

a well sealed chest will be more affective based on that more so than what it is built of


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[moehawk]

I had read up on the clothes eating moths a while back, apparently they prefer protien fibers such as our cashmeres, wools, silks and fur items, but will go after blends. They nornally do eat near where they hatch, but they need an enzyme found in animal perspiration in order to turn from larva into adult, and will travel surprising distances to find it. Usually the moths will lay their eggs close to a spot on the clothing where there is perspiration present, so dry cleaning items before storing can help prevent them but not always. The moth larvae will eat the clean fibers, then set out in search of anything with the needed sweat on it when it's time to moth up.
Pesky little hat and suit ruining bastages.

 

[moontheloon]

I had read up on the clothes eating moths a while back, apparently they prefer protien fibers such as our cashmeres, wools, silks and fur items, but will go after blends. They nornally do eat near where they hatch, but they need an enzyme found in animal perspiration in order to turn from larva into adult, and will travel surprising distances to find it. Usually the moths will lay their eggs close to a spot on the clothing where there is perspiration present, so dry cleaning items before storing can help prevent them but not always. The moth larvae will eat the clean fibers, then set out in search of anything with the needed sweat on it when it's time to moth up.
Pesky little hat and suit ruining bastages.

Great info moe
Thank you


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[moehawk]

Great info moe
Thank you


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No prob. Always happy to share my pest knowledge.

 

[Redfokker]

No prob. Always happy to share my pest knowledge.

+1

 

[Wesslyn]

I've found that silverfish are far more detrimental to hats than moths.

Am I the only one creeped out but the thought of bugs on or in my hats? Yeesh...