The Adventurer's Gear Thread

[Dudleydoright]

Mmmmmm

Apologies if I appear to be preaching. You would seem to be as well qualified as I in firearms handling.

Although FYI a British soldier was killed in Afghanistan by his mate who was handling a weapon he was unfamiliar with in the belief that it was unloaded / safe and blew his mates head off. Who was to blame ? The guy who left the weapon lying around loaded or the guy playing with it ? They were both in the Army and so, by your definition, not in need of being lectured in how to handle a rifle responsibly. I saw plenty of poor weapons handling.

A photo like that sends out a bad message. It's true it's fairly obvious to anyone who is a regular gun handler that that one must have been empty but to the uninitiated brought up on a diet of Hollywood movies ...................

So, I would beg to agree to differ as far as weapons handling drills go but I do respect your right to your views.

As this is a gear thread and not a debating one, I'll let you reply once more and then leave it go. We can always argue the point elsewhere and not bore everyone else to death !!

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Creeping Past]

Whoa now, people!

Can we all agree to park the trans-Atlantic stereotypes before commenting?

And DDR, have another look at the very old photo in question. Having survived a sky-high infant mortality rate, rickets, measles and myriad other potentially fatal illnesses while growing up in the 19th century (presumably), not to mention cholera, malaria, yellow fever and who knows what else in the Dark Continent, shouldn't the chap holding the rifle perhaps be allowed, in retrospect, to be a little more relaxed about risks in general? [huh]

 

[BellyTank]

As far as 19th and 20th Century "Hunting poses" go, I would say,
that the "hands-on-muzzle-of-weapon" pose is pretty standard.

No cause for alarm- don't want to unsettle the natives.


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[Mike K.]

Here! Here!

This is NOT the place to be pointing fingers, being critical, making comments to generate heated debates, etc. The Fedora Lounge, and this thread in particular, is known for conduct becoming of gentlemen and ladies.

With regard to the historic photo that has generated so much hype, I would like to direct everyone to Safari: A Chronicle of Adventure (if you own this book). Specifically, have a look at Chapter Two - the old Africa hands, early white hunters 1840-1860. This was one in a series of posed photographs titled 'Dressed for Africa.' Samuel Baker, the hunter in the photo, designed the outfit himself. It was dyed with the juice of wild fruits and crafted by his wife Florence. Samuel Baker was considered to be one of the finest shots in England. He was known, prior to his exploits in Africa, for hunting highlands stag using a knife instead of a gun. He bought his wife Florence for 7 pounds at a Hungarian slave auction and she became one of the first white women to endure the rigors of early safari life. In that photo is Samuel Baker's firearm - a 17lb single barrel four-bore percussion rifle. It was trampled by an elephant and repaired with elephant hide tightly wrapped around the hand and action.

 

[Mike K.]

The sight of all these now endangered species in these photographs shows us how things have changed......

I would also like to point out, that by the 1920s in East Africa, big game hunters and game wardens had shared concerns for game and habitat preservation. The livelihood of these professions was highly dependent on the continued existence and abundance of wildlife in Africa. Regulated and organized hunting safaris not only kept bag limits in check, but also employed scores of native workers and generated large sums of state revenue. When hunting was later banned to "protect" the wildlife, out-of-work people turned to large scale poaching which led to the current endangered status of so many species. It seems a bit of a paradox, but controlled hunting safaris were, and are, good for wildlife...outright bans are not.

 

[tonypaj]

I would also like to point out, that by the 1920s in East Africa, big game hunters and game wardens had shared concerns for game and habitat preservation. The livelihood of these professions was highly dependent on the continued existence and abundance of wildlife in Africa. Regulated and organized hunting safaris not only kept bag limits in check, but also employed scores of native workers and generated large sums of state revenue. When hunting was later banned to "protect" the wildlife, out-of-work people turned to large scale poaching which led to the current endangered status of so many species. It seems a bit of a paradox, but controlled hunting safaris were, and are, good for wildlife...outright bans are not.

Life today in East Africa is a bit different from the 20s or 30s. Regardless of having controlled hunting safaris, there would still be poachers, there are simply too many people and too much poverty.

However, I like the pictures and the clothes, and will go again on a present day non-hunting safari with the kids during Christmas when I go back to Kenya. Bigger thing for me will be a visit to Zanzibar, never been there before... But I won't be wearing my safari stuff anywhere there, that's reserved to annoy my colleagues at the office...

 

[carebear]

Thank you for your reasoned response.

The "so American" line was unnecessary and ticked me off. Don't look to Hollywood or TV for what the real gun culture in the US is about.

I certainly don't claim that simply being in the military gives anyone a pass on correct gun handling.

I was merely pointing out that there is a large difference between carelessly handling a weapon while "assuming it was unloaded" and safely handling a weapon you have cleared and know the status of in a controlled environment. Context is key.

In the case of that picture, I thought the circumstance fairly obvious. Would I pose with my hands on top of the barrels even if I had cleared it myself? No, but at that time that was not uncommon. Heck, it was potentially risky habits like that that led to the active promulgation of the 4 rules in the first place.

I'll let it drop as well.

Always nice to add another paratrooper to the Lounge.

 

[Dudleydoright]

APOLOGIES

Well, I better apologise for saying SOOOOO American. It was a sterrotype I was aluding to and I should have stuck some kind of emoticon on the end of that sentence. I've lived and worked (and hunted) in Canada and the Pacific NW in my time. I love the 'average' American and have trained with US troops. Never had a problem. Hell, technically I'm Canadian / Brit / Aussie by births and where I lived for any length of time. I hold both Brit and Canadian passports with equal pride.

My remark about the pose comes on the back of having seen a lot of poor drills and only really been comfortable with my close buddies. Also the number of accidents both in and out of the military. Like many people on here, I wear my heart pretty much on my sleeve. I better curb that from now on !

Regarding the 'endangered species' line. Most of those animals were shot for sport and not for meat. Look at the poses. I'm not critical of those people. Times were different and I don't judge with modern values. I merely passed a comment which reflected that those kinds of photos don't get taken these days. Or, if they do, they don't get flashed around. They could get you unwanted attention from the animal rights lot ! My maternal grandfather was a colonial doctor in Durban and Zanzibar in his time
(immediate post WW2) . I have photos of him doing much the same thing when not sipping pink gins and chasing the local colonial wives.

I hope that this clears the air.

Semper Fi Carebear !!

Dave

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Very warm but I found it uncomfortable and bulky and they're not very stylish at all.

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I had a five-button, "Radar O'Reilly" sweater when I was in the PA ANG. I loved the thing. I didn't think it was bulky at all. I was able to wear it under my BDU shirt. It was more comfortable than the issue expedition weight polypro underwear. The polypro was too bulky, and too hot to wear unless you were actually in the field.

The thing lasted me over ten years. I just got rid of it last year after it became unserviceable.

 

[Mojave Jack]

I had a five-button, "Radar O'Reilly" sweater when I was in the PA ANG. I loved the thing. I didn't think it was bulky at all. I was able to wear it under my BDU shirt. It was more comfortable than the issue expedition weight polypro underwear. The polypro was too bulky, and too hot to wear unless you were actually in the field.

The thing lasted me over ten years. I just got rid of it last year after it became unserviceable.

You weren't in the 193d SOW, by any chance, were you? I was TAD with them during Iraqi Freedom in Harrisburg.

I love those five button sweaters, but my first one was the wool version. As much as I prefer the traditional, I couldn't wear that sweater! The acrylic version was just as static-y as could be, but it was warm and comfortable and didn't make me itch like that wool one.

 

[Mike K.]

Need to find one in Merino wool...or cotton.

 

[Mojave Jack]

Need to find one in Merino wool...or cotton.

I just saw some new ones being offered in catalog with the military styling but in cotton, but I can't think which one it was. With X-mas coming (augh!) I am getting about 10 catalogs a day. Dang! Which one was it?! :eusa_doh:

 

[Mike K.]

Just ten? If only my mailbox was that simple. Seems like I order one or two things and each of those companies gives my address to a few dozen other catalog retailers. [huh]

 

[Lone_Ranger]

You weren't in the 193d SOW, by any chance, were you? I was TAD with them during Iraqi Freedom in Harrisburg.

I love those five button sweaters, but my first one was the wool version. As much as I prefer the traditional, I couldn't wear that sweater! The acrylic version was just as static-y as could be, but it was warm and comfortable and didn't make me itch like that wool one.

Ooops. Sorry about that. Make that PAANG. As in Army, not Air. I was Mech Infantry. I'm familiar with the 193d. They do some cool stuff.

 

[BellyTank]

Just to correct you here...

I had a five-button, "Radar O'Reilly" sweater when I was in the PA ANG. I loved the thing. I didn't think it was bulky at all. I was able to wear it under my BDU shirt. It was more comfortable than the issue expedition weight polypro underwear. The polypro was too bulky, and too hot to wear unless you were actually in the field.

The thing lasted me over ten years. I just got rid of it last year after it became unserviceable.

The sweater pictured, is not the US, 5 button sweater- it is a modern European military sweater. I have several variants of the classic 5 button, vintage and more modern and I like them. The pictured sweater is very heavy.


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[Lone_Ranger]

That explains a lot.

When I think of European military sweaters two variants come to mind.

The heavy ribbed knit British "Commando" sweater. Which isn't bad if you get the V-neck version, and layer it on the outside, so it's away from your skin.

Or the German sweater which is similar, but doesn't seem as heavy. I've never had the German one. It's usually seen with the small German flag on the sleeve.

 

[Martinis at 8]

That explains a lot.

When I think of European military sweaters two variants come to mind.

The heavy ribbed knit British "Commando" sweater. Which isn't bad if you get the V-neck version, and layer it on the outside, so it's away from your skin.

Or the German sweater which is similar, but doesn't seem as heavy. I've never had the German one. It's usually seen with the small German flag on the sleeve.

Go to the link I just posted in the travel section about my recent motorcycle trip. In that link you will see my Bundeswehr commando sweater. This was a replacement for my British SAS sweater. The Bundeswehr sweater is superior in my opinion. There is a small German flag on each sleeve (not visible in the photo, note the pocket, post #57 on the motorcycle thread). I had to have the sweater repaired. It had lots of holes in it. The sweater is great!

M8

 

[H.Johnson]

Yes!!!

The sweater pictured, is not the US, 5 button sweater- it is a modern European military sweater. I have several variants of the classic 5 button, vintage and more modern and I like them. The pictured sweater is very heavy.


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[H.Johnson]

Is this the real Pullover, Woollen, Commandos to which you are referring (i.e. issued to WW2 British Army Commandos) or the modern all-arms 'woolly-pully' as worn by Royal Marines (and just about everyone else) in different colours?

See previous thread(s)...

The heavy ribbed knit British "Commando" sweater.

 

[H.Johnson]

They do a buckle-top version canvas jungle boot (like the Palladium) that is not stiff at all...

I once had a pair of them that weren't SO stiff, actually fine but I've also seen very hard ones in surplus stores and wondered if they were surplus because they were actually un-wearable.
I also had a nice pair of black Bundeswehr boots, which were very stiff,
just not enough flex in them- blisters unavoidable. Castor oil can soften thick, hard leather but it can also rot stitching.


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